Interpreting Casualty Forms - Seaforth highlander

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by Mavis Williams, Jul 24, 2019.

  1. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Hi everyone, Apologies in advance if I am on the wrong Forum, but I have been asked a question about the Casualty Forms. When "Capture Year" is on the Transcription of the Form on FMP, i.e 1944 then on another 1945, - what does that mean please., as sometimes it is about a man who we know has died and was not captured. I know that the Army kept looking for men year after year, and I thought that it meant - the year that the Army inquired about the casualty, as some have year after year printed on them. I don't know if you can understand my question. Regards, Mavis
     
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hi Mavis,
    Hard to say without knowing the specifics / seeing the forms themselves - not the transcript.

    Has the form been correctly transcribed?
    Which casualty series - War Office or something Unit related, like the RA casualty cards?
    Is it definitely for the correct individual?
    If War Office publications, what are the casualty category headings, ie Missing/POW/KIA/DOW?
    What are CWGC details?

    Generally speaking if there was no concrete evidence that someone had died, no body/no eye-witness account, then Casualty Branch listed a person as Missing.
    If there was an update, info provided by Red Cross, by a fellow POW, etc, the category would be changed.
    Some POWs died after capture, eg either from injury/illness or as a result of war crime...

    It'd help if you posted up details, starting with CWGC. Some folks here have FMP access.

    Good luck.
     
    Tricky Dicky and CL1 like this.
  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Post the info and lets have a look at it - simples

    TD
     
  4. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Yes apologies, I should have done that:-
    Record Transcription: British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
    First name(s) J G
    Last name Chapman
    Year 1944
    Capture year 1944
    Service number 2933461
    Rank Private
    Rank as transcribed Pte
    Regiment Seaforth Highlanders
    Regiment as transcribed Seaforth Highlanders
    Theatre of war North West Europe
    Archive reference WO 417/79
    PIece description Casualty Lists - Other Ranks 1511 - 1525
    Archive
    The National Archives
    Record set British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
    Category Military, armed forces & conflict
    Subcategory Second World War
    Collections from Great Britain, UK None

    Thanks for your interest and help. Mavis.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

  6. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Mavis,
    Thanks for posting some details but where's the 1944 / 1945 discrepancy showing up?
    Under heading Date of Casualty = 28/06/1944
    Screenshot 2019-07-24 at 13.20.22.png

    CWGC - Casualty
    Private CHAPMAN, JOHN GORDON
    Service Number 2933461
    Died 28/06/1944
    Aged 24
    7th Bn. Seaforth Highlanders
    Son of Robert Francis and Catherine Boswell Chapman; husband of Williamina Anderson Chapman, of Dundee.
    INSCRIPTION: IN LOVING MEMORY OF MY DEAR HUSBAND JOHN GORDON. SADLY MISSED
    Buried at ST. MANVIEU WAR CEMETERY, CHEUX
    Location: Calvados, France
    Cemetery/memorial reference: III. E. 4.

    Concentration reports confirm KIA status, as well as date 28/06/1944.
    Concentrated on 8/845, the original field burial was located at Colleville, Sheet 7F/1, Scale 1/50,000, Map Ref 926654.
     

    Attached Files:

    Tony56 and stolpi like this.
  7. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Thank you CL1 for the photograph of the Gravestone and dbf for the information above, I haven't explained very well. I was asked by a member of Gordon's family what "Capture Year 1944 meant o the Transcription * as he wasn't captured at all.:-
    Record Transcription: British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
    First name(s) J G
    Last name Chapman
    Year 1944
    *Capture year 1944
    Service number 2933461
    Rank Private
    Rank as transcribed Pte
    Regiment Seaforth Highlanders
    Regiment as transcribed Seaforth Highlanders
    Theatre of war North West Europe
    Archive reference WO 417/79
    PIece description Casualty Lists - Other Ranks 1511 - 1525
    Archive
    The National Archives
    Record set British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
    Category Military, armed forces & conflict
    Subcategory Second World War
    Collections from Great Britain, UK None

    I couldn't answer her question, so asked the forum, but haven't made a good job of it have I. I have noticed it on many Casualty Lists, especially those who were m missing for years, perhaps in POW camps and them eventually they are found to have been missing but then died. Like as if the Army keeps looking for them over years, which I believe did happen. I hope this clarifies it a bit more. Regards, Mavis
     
  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    As mentioned in post 3 - post the image you are talking about so we can see it

    TD

    I see it is above - as Tony56 says read the original document - transcriptions can be a real pain. In the 1939 Register my father [William] is transcribed as Lillian and his date of birth [1918] is shown as 1878 :omg::unsure:
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  9. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    The casualty list original doesn't mention 'capture year', as with all these things it is only the original that is important, the original states KIA 28.6.44. Best not to rely on transcriptions.

    Edit: Sorry, just noted that you posted the original which states KIA.
     
  10. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Aye Tony, it sounds like a term FMP have used for one of their info fields when transcribing - possibly referring to the year that the captured data is from, ie 1944.

    Still don't see any mention of 1945 though. Or am I confusing something else?
     
  11. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Agreed, just misnamed I think, as the lists cover wounded, missing, POW etc. the generic term 'Casualty Year' would have been more appropriate, after all they are casualty lists! I can't see where 1945 comes in.
     
  12. Mavis Williams

    Mavis Williams Well-Known Member

    Thanks everyone and apologies for late reply, I have been away from my PC for a few days. I will tell the relative that "Capture Year" is the year when the information is gleaned from the different sources, I hope that's right. Kindest regards, Mavis
     

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