Intelligence Corps officer

Discussion in 'Top Secret' started by Rundtinden, Apr 29, 2017.

  1. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Hi!
    Can anyone with experience in the British Military archive system please tell me if the number 202114 can be used to find the id of this TWM? Service number maybe? What was the Intelligence corps, and why without army pay?

    5408 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 19 SEPTEMBER, 1941
    INTELLIGENCE CORPS. The undermentioned to be 2nd Lts.: —
    24th June 1941: — Thomas William MURRAY (202114), without Army pay and allces.

    Regards
    Svein Korsvold
     

    Attached Files:

  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    From some of the other names in the list, they may be civilians being given an 'honorary' rank, having been employed locally for their expert knowledge or language skills.

    The number will be specific to Murray but his army record won't be in the public domain and it might be quite thin, anyway. The archives might be of use if you can identify the unit he served with.
     
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  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Re member

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  4. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    Hi He was probably commissioned for either SOE, MI6 or MI9 - no trace of him in the SOE files
     
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  5. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Thank you for Swift reply!
    Still trying to track down the rest of Thomas William Murray`s amazing life. Found the notice in The London Gazette. Worth checking out if this could be him. Know for a fact that he did intelligence work for the US government in the 1930s, and that he had knowledge of codes etc so that the Norwegian resistance could contact British intellingence? in May-June 1940. Need to verify if they are the same person. Maybe date of birth? Is it possible to check the service record of 202114. Any other suggestions very much appreciated!
    Regards
    Svein Korsvold
     
  6. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Re member

    You have amassed some details for him in your other thread - Thomas W. Murray service ww2, perhaps you need to phone MOD records at Glasgow to see if you can obtain a copy of his service records even though you do not have a death certificate, if its the same man born in 1889 they cannot (or shouldnt) counter your request with the 100 year rule as he was born more than 100 years ago.
    I have always found then good at listening and helpful as well

    TD
     
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  7. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    TD, he's not in that new Army Discharge archive added to Ancestry recently for those born pre 1900 and discharged post 1920?
     
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  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Re member

    All UK, Military Discharge Indexes, 1920-1971 results for Thomas Murray
    There are 3 x T Murray born 1889

    T Murray
    18 Jul 1889 Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1921-1939 2201754

    T Murray
    6 Mar 1889 Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1939-1971 D/21200

    T Murray
    16 Sep 1889 Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1939-1971 2810410

    But none have the same number. Svein needs to find some factual information on this guy but he is a Walter Mitty character, so its a double problem in that is anything you find really true or just part of another story. Especially in light of his changes, or so it seems from Army to Navy to Intelligence, to Radio operator, to Spy to .............................. what next

    TD
     
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  9. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Interesting charachter! Found some postings by an american? Eric Schwartz on an old Norwegian forum. Mr. Murray is mentioned in both Costal command narratives and War Diary Rear Admiral Orkneys and Shetlands.
    The information is specified in the Archives together with the reaction. Amongst others Skua raid on oil supplies. July 1940. This proves he had the codes and id to be heard. He is also described in Malcolm Munthes book. He met him in Bergen 1940 when both tried to get to England ASAP.
    We know for a fact he got the WM in ww2, but KEW did not come up with any information on ships upon my request. Nothing found. Strange!
    So who was this man? Only an experienced telegraphist? Born in England. Emigrated to the US after WW1. Worked in some undercover federal job in the 1930s. On the Songa. In Bergen by chance in 1940, but With the right codes etc..And next? We will find him!
    But how?
    Regards Svein
     
  10. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    What did you ask for and did you contact them direct or you use a researcher?

    Regards
    Hugh
     
  11. RCG

    RCG Senior Member

    This may not help at all, But the similarities between T W Murray and another chap on that list is interesting.

    All those who were made up to 2nd Lt on that list are listed in Ancestry as still with the M.I. up until 1945.

    That is apart from George Lefoglou 191286 who is only listed to 1942 when he was killed.

    George Lefoglou

    Given Initials: G
    Rank: Captain
    Death Date: 19 Dec 1942
    Number: 191286
    Birth Place: Bulgaria
    Residence: Egypt
    Branch at Enlistment: Other Corps
    Theatre of War: Middle East
    Regiment at Death: Intelligence Corps
    Branch at Death: Other Corps

    Now strangely his name also comes up in the UK Shipping and Seamen ww1 and ww2 1914-1945 with two entries in the gazette 5th June and 30th June 1919 as having died. Listed under miscellaneous as, Lefoglou 83 Interpreter G. But does not come up on the CWGC site.

    In UK WW1 service medal & award Rolls 1914 -20, which must have been typed up after 13/11/1919 as that date is shown. He was engaged 2/12/1915 issued B.W. & V. M. 20/10/22 and is still serving. Yet he was supposed to have died In June 1919.
     
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  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Re member

    G Lefoglou in the British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920
    Name: G Lefoglou
    Regiment or Corps: GSI Interpretes, Inter-Allad Prestpork Burma
    Regimental Number: 83, 83
    30850_A000946-00327.jpg

    TD
     
  13. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Re member

    All UK, British Army Lists, 1882-1962 results for G Lefoglou
    Name: G . Lefoglou
    Military Year: 1941
    Regiment: Inelligence Corps
    Rank: 2nd Lieutenant

    Name: G . Lefoglou
    Military Year: 1942
    Regiment: Intelligence Corps
    Rank: 2nd Lieutenant


    Intelligence Corps (@intelligencecorps) | Instagram photos and videos
    .................Intelligence Corps laid a wreath at the grave of Capt George Lefoglou, Intelligence Corps (died 19/12/1942),..............................

    Perhaps Svein also needs to contact The Intelligence Corps - a possible start link - The Military Intelligence Museum - Sharing the secret maybe they have files on Murray ??

    TD
     
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  14. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Hi! I sent a request for them to check for any ww2 Merchant sailor papers. CRS 10 or anything else they got on him. Their search came up negative. Strange! We know he got the WM in WW2.
    Svein
     
  15. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

    Svein,

    Of course there is the chance that there are no surviving documents. However, they usually dismiss your request unless you are specific in the files you want copied - they will not look-up first, they deem that as research so usually just dismiss your request.

    My advice based, on many years of MN research is

    1. Visit Kew with the document references you want copied (no charge)
    2. Unable to visit Kew? I would look no further than the two guys on here who do copying for a reasonable cost, much cheaper than Kew or other researchers will charge and less hassle too.

    The reply you got from Kew would not be good enough for me. If you are serious about your research you have to be confident the files you want are not there.

    Regards
    Hugh
     
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  16. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Thank you for good advice!
    Got several jobs to keep me busy, including one in uniform , so the number one choice is difficult in the near future. I believe his grandson has contacted the two members who offer a copying service. Not sure how this turned out.
    Here is the reguest I sent to KEW:
    Order summary
    Catalogue reference:
    BT 382/1298
    Instructions: Need information about Merchant telegraphist Thomas William Murray, Born 10.04.1889 in Preston. He served on a number of ships in ww1. Have his medal card (online Archive). Trying to learn more of his war service in ww2. He got the War Medal ( Online Archive). Dis A number 908377 and id number? 210235 (from his CR10 card). Summary: Interested in his ww2 service record, and anything else that can helpful in finding his location after the war, included his grave. Regards Svein Korsvold E-mail: svein@isdalstoauto.no
    Cost: £8.40
    Just looked at his CR10 card again. Maybe the number is 928377?
    Regards
    Svein Korsvold
     
  17. Rundtinden

    Rundtinden Member

    Can anyone With the right tools find the date of birth on this TWM? See the PDF for more info.

    Regards
    Svein Korsvold
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Re member

    Svein

    The list you have is known in the UK as a bona vacantia list. This is produced when people die and do not leave a will or testament saying what they want to happen to their 'assets' after they have died. The only information you can read from this is that he died in 1984 or just before that.

    You already have this information in the other thread for this person - see post#2 - Thomas W. Murray service ww2

    Maybe if Admin read this they could possibly mearge the threads as we seem to keep going from one to the other.

    TD
     
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  19. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Re member

    OK - regarding the TWM you have shown as died 1984 his details are:
    Thomas William Murray in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
    Name: Thomas William Murray
    Birth Date: 15 Mar 1924
    Date of Registration: Nov 1984
    Age at Death: 60
    Registration district: Warrington
    Inferred County: Cheshire, Lancashire
    Volume: 35
    Page: 1010

    He also shows up at TNA:

    Reference: BT 395/1/70875
    Description:
    Medal listing of Murray, Thomas William
    Discharge number: R273571
    Date of Birth: 15 March 1924
    Date: [1946-2002]
    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Legal status: Public Record(s)
    Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
    Access conditions: Open on Transfer

    Name: Thomas William Murray
    Birth Date: 15 Mar 1924
    Service: 1939-1945
    Medal Issued/Claimed: 1946-2002
    Discharge Number: R273571

    TD
     
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  20. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

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