Inheriting Regimental traditions & awards from The British post 1947?

Discussion in 'British Indian Army' started by von Poop, Jun 18, 2009.

  1. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Edit: Thought I'd give this a thread of it's own.

    Subadar Ram Swarup Singh's gallantry will inspire the Regiment for all time.

    That from Andy's Ram Swarup Singh VC thread got me thinking as to how many 'British Indian Army' regiments carried on after independence as 'Indian/Pakistani Army' Regiments?
    The Ist Punjabs (That chap's regiment) apparently still survive in an amalgamated form on the Pakistani side of partition, which raises another question - Do India & Pakistan still have the VC as an award?

    On a very cursory glance it looks like there was a mildly hesitant 'tidying up' in India, with very much equivalent awards maintained:
    Defenceindia : The Victoria Cross
    Official Website of Indian Army
    And pretty much the same in Pakistan:
    itsPakistan - Pakistan - Nishan-e-Haider - Pakistan's Highest Military Award for Bravery

    What I've not yet worked out is whether VC holders were automatically awarded the new awards?.. I'd have thought there could be a good deal of precedence confusion in the mess with 2 equally esteemed VC level awards in one army.

    The two armies certainly 'look' kind of British in their heritage and Heraldry? But I'd be interested in learning more.

    ~A
     
  2. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Edit: Thought I'd give this a thread of it's own.


    Wondered where this post went to, was about to blame it on the 6X.
    hic.
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Sher Shah got a VC in WW2 whilst serving in the British Indian Army, Shah's Battalion 7/16 Punjab Regiment became a part of the Pakistan Army after 1947 and is known as the Sher Shah Battalion today.

    Andy
     
  4. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Rob ref your post one of the Indian chaps who got a VC was later awarded a VCP.
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    So the lists confirm there was no changeover of the award post independence.
    Funny that 'PVC' has the same ring to it as 'VC' In the Indian Army.

    Looking at those lists, most of the awards come from fighting against each other.
    Some of those earlier chaps seem likely to have been in the same Army pre-partition.
     
  7. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Rob ref your post one of the Indian chaps who got a VC was later awarded a VCP.

    Andy

    No kidding, but don't you mean a PVC!

    Rob
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Probably lol

    I noticed another chap today who was born in a region that is now part of Pakistan and gave his VC to a Pakistani regiment.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  9. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Andy

    Your VC thread is taking us on a journey to brave men from other cultures which is great.

    Cheers - Rob
     
  10. Pete Keane

    Pete Keane Senior Member

    In John Masters book 'Bugles and a Tiger' he briefly touchs on the splitting up after partition of his ghurka regiment - basically the regimental silverware was split 50/50 and given to each half, and each maintained the same regimental traditions carried on from the British.
     
    von Poop likes this.
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    My Sikh workmate made me smile today with this quote,
    He said,
    "India would be controlled by Pakistan today if it wasn't for us Sikhs, we can fight, the Hindus only know how to push pens."
     
  13. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    Edit: Thought I'd give this a thread of it's own.



    That from Andy's Ram Swarup Singh VC thread got me thinking as to how many 'British Indian Army' regiments carried on after independence as 'Indian/Pakistani Army' Regiments?
    The Ist Punjabs (That chap's regiment) apparently still survive in an amalgamated form on the Pakistani side of partition, which raises another question - Do India & Pakistan still have the VC as an award?

    On a very cursory glance it looks like there was a mildly hesitant 'tidying up' in India, with very much equivalent awards maintained:
    Defenceindia : The Victoria Cross
    Official Website of Indian Army
    And pretty much the same in Pakistan:
    itsPakistan - Pakistan - Nishan-e-Haider - Pakistan's Highest Military Award for Bravery

    What I've not yet worked out is whether VC holders were automatically awarded the new awards?.. I'd have thought there could be a good deal of precedence confusion in the mess with 2 equally esteemed VC level awards in one army.

    The two armies certainly 'look' kind of British in their heritage and Heraldry? But I'd be interested in learning more.

    ~A

    Some very good questions here. India and Pakistan have carried on the legacy of the British Indian Army and maintained its enviable military heritage albeit with minor, subtle changes to reflect the changed national status. All regiments remain unchanged in essence with a few alterations in titles, capbadges, ethos, battle honours and traditions.

    Both countries have introduced their own gallantry and distinguished awards replacing the British ones. However the British awards are still recognised, honoured and eligible for cash grants, monthly payments and awards of land. VC winners are particularly lionised. Sadly they're all gone now. But their funerals were largely attended with heads of govt, ministers, civil servants, senior Army officers besides honour guards from their old regiments in attendance. While they were still around, these VC winners had pride of place at the Republic Day Parade held every 26th January in New Delhi, parading past the President individually in open jeeps immediately behind the parade commander to the cheers of the onlookers. Some regiments like the Maratha Light Infantry for instance even had a tradition of saluting the VC, irrespective of the rank of the holder and that of the person saluting.

    There was no confusion really with the VC holders getting the same kind of status in free India as they would've had before Independence. In fact they got a higher rate of cash and land grants from the new Govt than they did from the British. Besides all of them getting promoted as of right to the rank of Honorary Captain, if they were from the ranks. That sort of facility was not given by the British I dare say. Since the VC was recognised as such there was no need to automatically give them the new awards of Param Vir Chakra (PVC) and Nishan-e-Haider (NH) in India and Pakistan respectively.

    I'm not aware of the position in Pakistan but in the matter of precedence of wearing of medals in India all Commonwealth medals come after the lowest Indian medal. While the VC is still held in high esteem and its holders accorded a high place in military protocol it practice the medal came after all Indian awards. I remember meeting General PS Bhagat, the first Indian King's Commisioned officer to win the VC. He wore the VC to the extreme left of his medal bar after all the Indian medals. Even the 9 Years Service Medal had precedence over the VC ! So the answer to your question is that not just the Indian PVC but even the lowest Indian medal takes precedence over the VC.

    Very few things have changed from the British times in both Armies. In the Indian Army though, the outlook is that of a truly national army rather than an instrument of colonial power. More on this later.

    Mandeep Bajwa
     
    Owen likes this.
  14. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    Rob ref your post one of the Indian chaps who got a VC was later awarded a VCP.


    I presume that you're referring to Naib Subedar Nand Singh, 1st Sikh. He was awarded neither the 'VCP' pr the PVC but the Maha Vir Chakra (MVC), free India's second highest gallantry award. Sadly, his Vc which he carried on his person at all times wasn't recovered along with his body. Presumably one of the Pakistanis who killed him carried it off. It remains missing till this day.

    BTW he's referred to as N/Sub Nand Singh, MVC,VC showing the altered precedence of wearing medals. A very brave man.
     
  15. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    So the lists confirm there was no changeover of the award post independence.
    Funny that 'PVC' has the same ring to it as 'VC' In the Indian Army.

    Looking at those lists, most of the awards come from fighting against each other.
    Some of those earlier chaps seem likely to have been in the same Army pre-partition.


    The third highest Indian award for gallantry is the Vir Chakra. To distinguish it from the VC its abbreviation is VrC.

    Many Indian and Pakistani soldiers who fought against each other actually fought together in the same units during WW 2 or operations on the North-West Frontier. In fact after the cease-fires there used to be not just fraternisation but a little bit of bonhomie too.

    While mutual relations were put under a great deal of tension because of the bloodletting of Partition and there were stray cases of Indian and Pakistani soldiers succumbing to the pressures and firing on each other, units retained their cohesion. Soldiers in units that were broken up because of the communal divide ensured that their comrades and their families reached their respective countries safely.
     
  16. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    Probably lol

    I noticed another chap today who was born in a region that is now part of Pakistan and gave his VC to a Pakistani regiment.

    Cheers
    Andy

    Who was this ? I recall a case some years ago when an Indian doctor presented his sword to Coke's Rifles (now 3 FF in the Pakistan Army). He used to be their RMO.

    Mandeep Bajwa
     
  17. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    In John Masters book 'Bugles and a Tiger' he briefly touchs on the splitting up after partition of his ghurka regiment - basically the regimental silverware was split 50/50 and given to each half, and each maintained the same regimental traditions carried on from the British.

    John Masters' regiment, the 4th Gurkhas weren't split up but retained with the IA. Was there an splitting up of regimental silver ? Maybe the departing British officers laid claim to it since it was built up with their subscriptions. The disposal/dividing up of the mess and regimental property and funds at Independence caused a lot of bitterness not only in the Gurkhas but in most other Regiments as well.

    However the 4th Gurkhas not only maintain their old traditions but inspired by them are a much superior Regiment now I daresay.
     
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Who was this ? I recall a case some years ago when an Indian doctor presented his sword to Coke's Rifles (now 3 FF in the Pakistan Army). He used to be their RMO.

    Mandeep Bajwa

    I'm affraid I can't remember now, it was nearly two years ago when I posted that, around the same time I was doing a thread on all the VC's of WW2.

    I may have noted it down in the recipients post within the VC thread though.

    Sorry.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/unit-documents/19802-all-victoria-crosses-world-war-two.html
     
  19. shahbaaz

    shahbaaz Member

    My Sikh workmate made me smile today with this quote,
    He said,
    "India would be controlled by Pakistan today if it wasn't for us Sikhs, we can fight, the Hindus only know how to push pens."

    I wouldn't make such a sweeping generalisation about Hindus, but yes Sikhs have played a leading role out of all proportion to their share in India's population in defending the country. They are the quintessential Indians, ever ready to make sacrifices for the nation.
     
  20. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

Share This Page