Info on F.W.SELFE 201 Squadron (lost 21/08/1941)

Hi..

I'm trying to find more information about a relative who was lost in World War 2. He was crew on a Short Sunderland operating out of Sullom Voe and was lost over the North Atlantic in August 1941. I just wanted to see if anyone had more information about him, the crew, and their plane (which was never recovered). Would love to know some more info about any other sorties that it flew, any history, etc.

His full details from the CWGC are:

Name: SELFE, FRANCIS WILLIAM
Initials: F W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Pilot Officer
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force
Unit Text: 201 Sqdn.
Date of Death: 21/08/1941
Service No: 61510
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

There seems to be a good amount of information about 201 Squadron on the net but mostly seems to get comprehensive around the end of 1941 when they were based at Castle Archdale. There's a real lack of information around on them at Sullom Voe.

Any information would be much appreciated.

 

There are 13 casualties which seems a large crew for one Sunderland...
001 ADAMS EO 755269 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
002 BARRACLOUGH LH 958499 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
003 DEVEREUX DMVP 567519 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE
004 EVILL AG 73043 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
005 GANGE EWW 528264 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE
006 GORDON TJ 966724 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
007 HANCOX WPJ 759140 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
008 KING JAC 1150791 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
009 MILLS H 702322 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
010 NEWMAN KE 926329 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
011 RICHARD JF 629318 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE
012 SELFE FW 61510 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE
013 SIMMONS JM 937545 201 SQDN 21/08/1941 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE

Were they all on one Sunderland?

 

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I have the following which is taken from 'RAF Coastal Command Losses' - McNeill.

21 August 1941

201 Squadron
Sunderland II W3982 ZM-
Op. Anti-Submarine Patrol.

F/O. A G. Evill +
P/O. F W. Selfe +
Sgt. J M. Simmons +
Sgt. L H. Barraclough +
Sgt. J A C. King +
Sgt. D M V P. Devereux +
Sgt. E O. Adams +
Sgt. K E. Newman +
Sgt. W P J. Hancox +
F/S. E W W. Gange +
LAC. T J. Gordon +
LAC. J F. Richard +
LAC. H. Mills +

Took off Sullom Voe 1107 hrs for a patrol of area Fate 3. Signalled that they had been attacked by an enemy aircraft and ditched NNW of the Shetlands. All are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.

 

Wonderful Thankyou for the information I'd done some googling last night and had found that a Barraclough was mentioned in a list of losses for a specific region here and given that it was the same squadron and date assumed they were probably crew on the same flight, so that confirms it.

Barton upon Humber (second person down)

 

I got some more information, as I visited my parents and also my grandmother (F.W.Selfe's brother) - she has some pictures, and also some additional information. Thought I would post some more up, as it might be of interest to someone! A letter my dad received from the Ministry of Defense gives a bit more information about the crew and the circumstances surrounding their demise. The letter is as follows:

Our records show that on the 21st August 1941, Sunderland W3982 of No 201 Squadron took off from Sullom Voe, Shetlands at 11.00 hours and due to return at 21.00 hours. The pilot was detailed to carry out a cross over anti-submarine patrol in the area to the North West of Shetland.

At 16.11 hours a signal from the flying boat reported the sighting of an enemy aircraft. Seven minutes later, No 18 group heard an SOS from the same aircraft. Nothing further was heard in spite of repeated attempts to raise a reply.

A Sunderland from Sullom Voe and a Blenheim from Sumburgh took off within the hour and searched the position given until dark. Air searches were continued all the next day, assisted by 2 naval trawlers, but to no avail.

Over the whole of the period the visibility was good, sea calm, with fairly heavy swell in the area of the incident. The full crew was:

Flying Officer - A.G Evill - 1st Pilot
Pilot Officer - F.W Selfe - 2nd Pilot
Sergeant - J.M Simmons - 3rd Pilot
Sergeant - L.H Barraclough - Air Observer
Sergeant - J.A.C King - Air Observer
Sergeant - D.M.V.P Devereux - Wireless Electrical Mechanic / Air Gunner
Sergeant - E.O Adams - Wireless Operator / Air Gunner
Sergeant - J Newman - Wireless Operator / Air Gunner
Sergeant - J Hancox - Air Gunner
Flight Sergeant - E.W.W Gange - Flight Mechanic Air / Air Gunner
Leading Aircraftman - J.F.Richard - Flight Mechanic Engine
Leading Aircraftman - T.J. Gordon - Flight Mechanic Engine
Leading Aircraftman - H Mills - Fitter IIA

I have a few photos of my great uncle which I'll try get scanned up at some point!

 

Hi, I’m new here and came across your post. I also am researching the circumstances of the death of my uncle PO Vernon Branwell Dewhurst in May 1941. It turns out that he and your relative F W Selfe were best friends at Squires Gate where they were training. After the accident that killed my uncle Selfe helped in sorting out his possessions etc. and met and wrote to my Grandfather. They were training on the infamous Blackburn Botha, probably the worst aircraft ever to be in service with the RAF, a plane that killed scores of trainee pilots as well as instructors.
I have several letters from your relative to my Grandfather ( luckily he kept everything ) and I would be delighted to send you copies if it would be of interest to you.
A rather poignant footnote to the accident ….your relative was to have been on the plane with my uncle to replace a sick man…but at the very last minute the man was passed fit and so replaced your relative. My grandfather says in a letter that Selfe was very affected by this, especially since it was the second time that had happened to him!!! Such a tragedy he would die a few weeks later.
Somewhere I think I have a group photo that Selfe appears on…I’ll check it out.

 

Vernon,

Hello and welcome to the forum.

An excellent first post and look forward to learning more about your relative.

Regards
Tom

 

Just spotted that my uncle's service number was 61506...just 4 before your Great Uncle's...maybe they joined up at the same time?!

 

Vernon
Welcome to the forum, thank you for expanding the post and look forward to further posts

 

Enclose pic of PO Selfe with my uncle PO Dewhurst on training course, Blackpool 1941

 

Hello and welcome, Vernon. Lovely group photo, but Sgt Bristow in boots and a loose lace!!
I assume you know more about the crash in light of your comments about the Botha. Obviously it wasn't possible to identify who was who in the wreckage, and what carnage it wreaked on some of the best potential pilots....

Name: BRUXNER-RANDALL, JULIEN WALTER LOWNDES. Rank: Flying Officer (Pilot)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force
Age: 20. Date of Death: 02/05/1941. Service No: 33534
Additional information: Son of Walter Bruxner-Randall and of Dorothy Bruxner-Randall (nee Montgomery), of Bagenalstown, Co. Carlow, Irish Republic. Cranwell First Prize Cadetship, 1939.
Grave/Memorial Reference: Row W. Coll. grave 10.
Cemetery: KIRK MALEW (ST. MALEW) CHURCHYARD EXTENSION

Name: WALTERS, WILLIAM RICHARD AELWYN. Rank: Pilot Officer (Pilot)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. Unit Text: 79 Sqdn.
Age: 29. Date of Death: 27/04/1941. Service No: 61501
Additional information: Son of the Rev'd. Canon Thomas William Walters, M.A. and Emmeline Florence Walters of Branksome Park, Bournemouth, Hampshire.
Grave/Memorial Reference: Row 1. Grave 16. Cemetery: PEMBREY (ST. ILLTYD) CHURCHYARD


Name: DEWHURST, VERNON BRAMWELL. Rank: Pilot Officer (Pilot)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Age: 19. Date of Death: 02/05/1941. Service No: 61506
Additional information: Son of William Edward and Ada Sophia Dewhurst, of Penrhyn Bay, Llandudno, Caernarvonshire.
Grave/Memorial Reference: Row W. Coll. grave 10.
Cemetery: KIRK MALEW (ST. MALEW) CHURCHYARD EXTENSION
The Churchyard is near Ballasalla, which in turn is near the present day Isle of Man airport, so presumably the crash happened shortly after take off?

Similar Service Numbers also show as casualties, a bright bunch gone forever.....

Name: GOODE, PHILIP ARTHUR. Rank: Pilot Officer (Pilot)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Age: 27. Date of Death: 02/05/1941. Service No: 61507
Additional information: Son of Arthur and Elena Goode; husband of Evelyn Hilda Agnes Goode, of Lowestoft.
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sec. 15A. Grave 231. Cemetery: LOWESTOFT (BECCLES ROAD) CEMETERY

Name: ROWSE, WILLIAM GEORGE. Rank: Pilot Officer (Pilot)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. Unit Text: 104 Sqdn.
Age: 21. Date of Death: 15/07/1941. Service No: 61503
Additional information: Son of Joseph Yates Rowse and Elizabeth May Rowse, of Rugby, Warwickshire.
Grave/Memorial Reference: Main Path 1. Western Part Coll. grave 2-4.
Cemetery: VEENDAM GENERAL CEMETERY

Name: SABINE, ALBERT. Rank: Pilot Officer (Pilot)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force
Date of Death: 22/04/1941. Service No: 61509
Additional information: Husband of Marjorie May Sabine, of Bradford, Yorkshire.
Grave/Memorial Reference: Grave 50. Cemetery: WEST MALLING (ST. MARY) CHURCHYARD

Name: THOMSON, RONALD ROUMIEU. Rank: Wing Commander (Pilot). Awards: D F C
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. Unit Text: 114 Sqdn.
Age: 30. Date of Death: 19/02/1945. Service No: 61512
Additional information: Son of Albert David and Doris Roumieu Thomson; husband of Marion Elizabeth Thomson, of Kelso, Roxburghshire. M.A. (Cantab.).
Grave/Memorial Reference: Coll. grave I. C. 3-5. Cemetery: UDINE WAR CEMETERY

 

F W SELFE'S NAME ON PANEL 34 OF THE RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL (TAKEN BY FORUM MEMBER CLI)

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31331&d=1279214126

 

They took off from Squires Gate, Blackpool on a triangular patrol over the Irish sea with the Isle of Man one of the way points. The plane nose dived into the sea apparently on one engine. My grandparents were unable to obtain any more details as the Raf refused any info and his friends were instructed not to discuss the accident with anyone, maybe because of the frequency of crashes with this sort of aircraft. There were 4 men on the plane. My uncle was burried on the Isle of Man without my grandparents being informed in spite of them being asked before if the wanted his body returned to the mainland...all rather strange. Major Bruxner-Randall, the father of the pilot was invited to the funeral however...odd!

 

This is the most wonderful selection of updates I could ever hope to expect. Absolutely spectacular. vernon1234uk - I don't think I can put into words how much this means to me and how much it will mean to my grandma, PO Selfe's sister.. who's still alive. I can't wait to tell her about this. THANKYOU.

I'll send you a PM with my email address, etc in - if you would happy to send the other information you said you had, I'd be eternally grateful.

 

Hi Jim
thanks for your reply! Of course i would love to see anything you have that might be relevant to my uncle and his RAF days.
I'll enclose some letters either from your relative or concerning him.
A bit busy now but i'll send you a fuller message later.
Merry Christmas
so pleased your Grandma is still alive...makes it all seem more real!

Ps don't seem to be able to upload the files here..if you send me your email i can mail them to you. Mine is : mail@vernondewhurst.com (i was named after my uncle) I'm in Bucks..where are you?

 

Have sent you a mail with more information and a picture which I'm certain has got your uncle in it!

Cheers.

 

So this has unravelled quite wonderfully. Vernon kindly sent me a number of copies of the various letters my great uncle wrote - I don't really know what my grandma's reaction to seeing all of this over christmas is going to be.. I suspect it will be quite emotional for her!

Thankfully it hasn't all been one way though. I had literally 2 or 3 pictures of my great uncle Francis, with friends / colleagues. When Vernon mentioned that our two relatives had been training together & were friends at Squires Gate I immediate thought about one of the pictures which my grandma had told me was taken on Blackpool front - and of course Squires Gate is in Blackpool. I sent Vernon the picture and lo and behold, one of the chaps in the picture was his uncle. Talk about a wonderful coincidence.



PO Dewhurst on the left, PO Selfe in the centre and an unknown individual on the right.

 

Have you tried the Sqn Historian at 201 Sqn? The sqns at Kinloss will soon be looking to get rid (hopefully back to its rightful owners) of their history and they may have information relating to the time at Sullom Voe.

Roxy

 

Just spotted that my uncle's service number was 61506...just 4 before your Great Uncle's...maybe they joined up at the same time?!

The Service numbers are so close as they both recieved their commissions as pilot officers on the same day. However the service numbers for them as LAC's are aprox 10,000 apart but both relate to RAF Cardington (Bedford) - 1150001 to 1250000 Apr 1940 - Apr 1941 RAF Cardington

2nd Mar. 1941.
1164820 Vernon Bramwell DEWHURST (61506).
928130 Philip Arthur GOODE (61507).
968182 Horatio Herbert Kitchener GUNNIS (61508).
926305 Albert SABINE (61509).
1150884 Francis William SELFE (61510).
947869 Alexander Robertson WILSON (61511).

Viewing Page 1814 of Issue 35119

 

Have you tried the Sqn Historian at 201 Sqn? The sqns at Kinloss will soon be looking to get rid (hopefully back to its rightful owners) of their history and they may have information relating to the time at Sullom Voe.

Roxy

I've emailed a friend who works just up the road at RAF Lossiemouth for some advice on the best route in to contact the 201 Squadron historian at Kinloss... fingers crossed he can give me some tips to get in touch..