Imagine...

The story of air power in WWII is very impressive as anyone knows who as studied the subject. Was it the single most dominant factor in WWII as to who won?

Well, to me that's easy to determine. You don't have to be a jug-a-holic to come to the same conclusion, just simply imagine it was the Germans that had the air supremacy.

Imagine <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Shermans</st1:place></st1:City> being attacked mercilessly by Tigers without air cover.

Imagine those <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Shermans</st1:place></st1:City> retreating as Stukas come in droves dropping bombs on them on the road and clogging the access for escaping armor.

Imagine fields of infantry being sprayed with bullets as they sit in the sun resting from hard fighting.

Shortages in the <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Lorraine</st1:place></st1:State> campaign brought Patton to a standstill. Imagine if when the supplies were flowing if thousands of HE-111s and JU-88s came over and dropped heavy bombs on the Shermans, infantry and artillery.

Imagine all of the rail lines and trucks of COMZ, Red Ball Express, etc carrying vital supplies, suddenly blowing up by opportunistic prowling FW-190s carrying 250 bombs and strafing troops. You would have to think that the Allies could not have withstood this kind of warfare.

Imagine the factories in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Britain</st1:country-region> and the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> that were being destroyed as soon as they were open for business over and over.

Imaging the Allied fuel reserves constantly limited.

Imagine being constantly cut off from the communications with your CO or HQ because the prowling fighters blew up your communications lines and an attack coming.

Image finally finding enough sanity to stage an offensive and in grouping all of your armor for the offensive, not only do spotters give your position, size strength and components to the enemy you need to surprise, but also calling in fighter bombers who decimate the armor to where the remaining armor has to scramble into the trees to survive.

Imagine your air fields constantly bombed without warning.

Imagine not being able to train pilots because you have to go up in the air to do it and they are subject to fighter attacks.

Imagine scads bombers by day and bombers targeting what appears to be your most critical assets.

Imagine enemy artillery pounding you and being precise by the fact there is an uncontested spotter plane zeroing them in on your position rapidly, calling fighter bombers when you move.

Imagine your infantry groups having napalm dropped right in the middle of their camp at any moment including at night when they are getting much needed rest.

Imagine not being able to fire your artillery because you don't want to give away its position to patrolling planes squinting in desparate hope you didn't completely cover a piece of a equipment.

This might seem extreme but it was what motivated Rommel to tell Hitler in 1943 that the war was over and for Hitler to agree.

Here are some of the witty sayings of Churchill and the famous historian whose penname is simpy "Jimbo". You have probably heard them over and over throughout the years:

"Air power is much more critical to those who don't have it than to those who do." - Jimbo

"He who controls the sky controls the war and every aspect of it." - Jimbo

"'Air supremacy' and 'game over' are synonymous" - Jimbo

"A jug in the sky is worth two in the bush" - Jimbo

"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few" - Churchill

Of course, Churchill is not as famous as the other, but man, those guys sure are clever, I wish I could meet either one of them...you are welcome to put the quotes in your signatures.<o:p></o:p>

 

Jim, You seem to be an advocate of Tactical Air. That's all fine and good but in order for your argument to stand, you must discuss the absolute issue of air supremacy. I know it was one of your quotes, but its even more important than TAC air. Bombers and your P-47s wouldn't be able to operate effectively if opposed in significant numbers by Fw-190s, Me-109Ks, and Me-262s flown by experienced pilots.

 

Imagine..... Jimbo actually using some logic when thinking about air power :mellow:

 

Whilst I do agree that air Power was a hugely important factor in the overall victory in WWII there are some limitations:

Weather - Played a huge role in determining whether Air Cover was available. Without Good Weather, no amount of Jugs, Spits or Mustangs are gonna give you air supremacy. Which is probably why the Germans were able to launch operation "Wacht am Rhein" or The Ardennes Offensive. Or why the Russians were able to launch the counteroffensive in 1941 outside Moscow.

Fuel - Doesnt matter how many planes you got, no fuel, no go. This is why the Luftwaffe became extinct. When they lost the Ploesti oilfields to the Russians, and the mighty 8th destroyed the synthetic oil plants in 1944 there was no way back. Aircraft production reached its zenith in 1944 for the Germans but it didnt matter because their fuel situation was so wretched.

 

Jim, You seem to be an advocate of Tactical Air. That's all fine and good but in order for your argument to stand, you must discuss the absolute issue of air supremacy. I know it was one of your quotes, but its even more important than TAC air. Bombers and your P-47s wouldn't be able to operate effectively if opposed in significant numbers by Fw-190s, Me-109Ks, and Me-262s flown by experienced pilots.
Well you got the first part correct. It was the Jugs that ridded the Germans of air supremacy Herroberst. They did this when Germany had the veteran pilots and the US had the rookies. I came up with a term "jugnorance" a while back to address the problem of people not understanding the role the P-47 played in WWII or how it compared to the Mustang. The US's top FG (where the most aces came from) rejected the Mustang and stayed with the Jugs.

What you don't realize is the reason I am pro jug is that it WAS the air superiority weapon of WWII and was the most effective fighter/bomber too. It had only one enemy. Flak. As Hap Arnold said, "it was the P-47 that broke the back of the luftwaffe". The P-47 was the primary fighter until spring 44. You do realize it was the fastest single engine piston fighter in WWII (P-47N - was clocked at 507mph) despite the fact it was heavily armored, heavily armed (two 50 cals less than an entire B17) and weighed 7.5 tons don't you? Don't let the bueaty of the P-51 make think it was the best performer. Lots have fallen into that trap. Pretty plane = dominant plane. NOT SO!

P-47s were so dominate because you couldn't dive away from them, you couldn't go up to get them (only a Spit could go as high) you cant catch them and even if you could, you couldn't shoot them down if you caught them at low altitude. They simply took a fierce beating like a B-17 and could still protect the pilot and get him home. The P-51 was the escort of choice merely because of its range to Berlin without drop tanks.

You mentioned ME-262s and poor pilots, again not so, Adolph Galland (Germany's top western front ace) was shot down in an ME-262 and put out of the war by a P-47 running him down from behind. So your argument that the Germans didn't have pilots late is not completely correct, but the were few and far between and that's because they Jugs saw to it earlier in the war. The Jug's weakness was its limited range (except for the N module which) and low altitude performance. The P-51 was a better dog fighter but not a better fighter. You didn't destroy the enemy in a Jug by dog fighting it simply evened the score and neutralized your superiorities. In fact, in one unfortunate instance, a P-51 squadron out of their patrol area jumped a couple of P-47s thinking they were FW-190s and one of the Mustangs got shot down by one of the Jugs before they realized they were friendlies.

You will find as you dig, my appreciation of air power is not quite so unfounded as some seem to believe. We'll get there buddy, we'll get there. It takes time to figure out the real WWII. Too many goosebump stories and too little description of equipment which was capable of massive destruction of a helpless enemy. Give it time.

 

You will find as you dig, my appreciation of air power is not quite so unfounded as some seem to believe. We'll get there buddy, we'll get there. It takes time to figure out the real WWII. Too many goosebump stories and too little description of equipment which was capable of massive destruction of a helpless enemy. Give it time.

I have yet to figure out if you are a genious who knows more than anyone else about air power over wartime europe and despite everyone else knowing enough to doubt you, you know more inside information on the subject than anyone, or you are deluded and living in your own world where 'jugs' arethe indestructable secret weapon that won the war for the allies.

Let me put it this way. A genious who knew what they were on about wouldn't make so many simple errors and assumptions.

Sorry, you are a very long way from having me anywhere near being convinced.

 

I know this isn't really adding to the discussion, but if the German's had air supremacy, how could we have invaded Europe? Surely our ships and supply lines would have been totally destroyed before we got anywhere. Or am i missing something here?

 

Whilst I do agree that air Power was a hugely important factor in the overall victory in WWII there are some limitations:

Weather - Played a huge role in determining whether Air Cover was available. Without Good Weather, no amount of Jugs, Spits or Mustangs are gonna give you air supremacy. Which is probably why the Germans were able to launch operation "Wacht am Rhein" or The Ardennes Offensive. Or why the Russians were able to launch the counteroffensive in 1941 outside Moscow.

Fuel - Doesnt matter how many planes you got, no fuel, no go. This is why the Luftwaffe became extinct. When they lost the Ploesti oilfields to the Russians, and the mighty 8th destroyed the synthetic oil plants in 1944 there was no way back. Aircraft production reached its zenith in 1944 for the Germans but it didnt matter because their fuel situation was so wretched.
Well, finally at least someone posted something reasonable about air power.

Gotthard, you are correct in your assessment of the limitations. That was both logical, lucid and poignent (observe fellas and fellets). You are correct in saying that weather is the weakness of air power in WWII. Why do you think Patton ordered the Chaplain to pray for clear weather? Tanks move about as well in snow as they do in clear weather. He needed those Jugs! The biggest story of WWII to me is very unusual and unique relationship Patton and Weyland had. It tells the tale of the tape of why Patton was able to be so aggressive with Shermans. There were no other air/ground commanders that had cooperation anything like these too, in any other army US or otherwise. It is quite revealing. It is the single biggest untold story of WWII in my opinion. Those two developed tactical air doctrine for the allies emperically.

You are right about the bombers taking out the German fuel supply but you should consider the subject of this thread was air power and the effect of the bombers was included as one of the imagine points as it supports the issue rather than challenges it. This is why air supremacy was the #1 priority of US air and why Jugs were used as fighters until the ground offensive where they were passed to TAC air from 8th air (except for the 54th FG of course) and replaced with the less expensive and longer ranged mustangs.

The only thing I would disagree with is saying that fuel was the primary problem of the Luftwaffe. It was late in the war but the primary problem of air supremacy was too many dead or captured experienced pilots shot down by fighter/bombers, and too few serviceable or new aircraft and unpatrolled skies to train new pilots (also thanks to the bombers). Air superiority was achieved by Big Week and air supremacy by D-Day as evidenced by the fact that the Germans put up virtually no air in the invasion, completely perplexing the German ground commanders.

But I think you are making my point more than refuting it, though I am not sure that you were intending to refute it but rather temper it.

 

Could everyone stop the personal attacks and remain discussing the topic!

 

Imagine..... Jimbo actually using some logic when thinking about air power :mellow:
This is supposed to be some kind of convincing counterargument? -:sign_lame:

 

This is supposed to be some kind of convincing counterargument? -:sign_lame:

Mmmmm, that means you actually think your points were convincing :mellow:

 

Jimbo

I wasnt refuting or tempering your argument. I was merely discussing the subject at hand and adding my opinion!

 

Jimbo

I wasnt refuting or tempering your argument. I was merely discussing the subject at hand and adding my opinion!
Well it was a darn good one!

 

If the German's had air supremacy, how could we have invaded Europe? Surely our ships and supply lines would have been totally destroyed before we got anywhere.

Thank you Kitty, You are correct the Allies would have lost horribly,men and material.

It is why Hitler didn't invade England.

You mentioned ME-262s and poor pilots, Adolph Galland was shot down in an 262 by a P-47 from behind.


I am well aware of Adolph Galland of JG-26 fame. Holder of the Knight Cross of the Iron Cross with Oakleaves, Swords, and Diamonds, he formed JV-44 with the 262s. These men were Experten true, but there were far too few of them to make any sort of difference. He knew that the 262 was vulnerable to attack on take off and landing so he organized Doras to fly cover for the jets. My point Jim was, read my post again, here it is

absolute issue of air supremacy. I know it was one of your quotes, but its even more important than TAC air. Bombers and your P-47s wouldn't be able to operate effectively if opposed in significant numbers by Fw-190s, Me-109Ks, and Me-262s flown by experienced pilots.


Air superiority means greater strength of aircraft in ability with experienced pilots than the enemy.

For example, 2 Me-262s with 4 Dora escorts and 4 Me-109Ks flown by experienced pilots would defeat 4 P-47s flown by average pilots. That's on the low end of significant numbers. Had the Luftwaffe done things right they would be met by 30 Me-109Ks armed with 30mm cannons. That's significant numbers.

So your argument that the Germans didn't have (experienced?)pilots late is not completely correct

That's not what I said, I said significant numbers flown by significant numbers of experienced pilots.

See if the Jugs can't get to the airfields because they get destoyed before they cross the channel(What was it 2 or 4 Luftwaffe Aircraft interdicted the landings at Normandy? Priller?)

Then they would never get to strafe, rocket and bomb the Wehrmacht in whatever capacity.

The Bombers that Gott mentioned wouldn't reach the petrol facilities.

The weather would hamper Ops but only for so long then Airpower would kick in again.

I appreciate the lesson about the P-47 although I am curious how it would make out in a dogfight with a P-51. You don't see alot of P-47s racing these days were as you do see P-51s.

I stand by my statement, thank you for your observations and await your reply.

 

This might seem extreme but it was what motivated Rommel to tell Hitler in 1943 that the war was over and for Hitler to agree.

.<O:p></O:p>

Do you have a source and a date for this - as I'm not sure that in 1943 Rommel had to cope with Allied air supremacy

Also Wikipedia seems to think that the Sea Fury was the fastest single piston-engined aircraft

 

Aber said the 'W' word. Oops! Not sure about the Sea Fury, i shall have to dig out the Jane's book from under my pile of uni folders. Again.
But i would like to see the context of the '43 Rommel comment. As Hitler's blue eyed boy, it would be surprising if he did say this.
Kitty

 

Re 'W' - just surprised that with so many P-47 enthusiasts in the world, the Sea Fury entry hasn't been amended

 

Aber said the 'W' word. Oops! Not sure about the Sea Fury, i shall have to dig out the Jane's book from under my pile of uni folders. Again.
But i would like to see the context of the '43 Rommel comment. As Hitler's blue eyed boy, it would be surprising if he did say this.
Kitty

Rommel drafted a memo to hitler in July 44 expressing his thought on the situation and how it was not possible for the germans to win.

"It is easy for you to talk. ever since 1943, I have tried incessantly to conclude a peace but the allies won't; from the onset thay have demanded unconditional surrender.......

Hitler quoted in Hans Rudels, Stuka pilot, P 257.

 

Ah, '44 makes more sense. cheers beloved.

 

Aber said the 'W' word. Oops! Not sure about the Sea Fury, i shall have to dig out the Jane's book from under my pile of uni folders. Again.
But i would like to see the context of the '43 Rommel comment. As Hitler's blue eyed boy, it would be surprising if he did say this.
Kitty
Kitty-kat. I read that in The Rommel Papers, which was Rommel's diary. He met with Hitler in person after the battle in <st1:State w:st="on">Sicily</st1:State> and told him because of the Allies use of air power in <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Sicily</st1:place></st1:State> that the war was unwinable. They were realists and didn't have the hangups that air was only marginally critical like you see posted here as counterarguments to my claims of its importance. Hitler did acquiesce Rommel’s statement but said that it was too late and that if the German people can't win, then let them all perish.<o:p></o:p>

If you wish I can give you the chapter and verse so you will know that Rommel did understand the futility of defeating an army that has air supremacy.