Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Oldleg, Nov 5, 2015.
Sorry Ramacal, I did not see your entry, I will look at it later today.
Cheers Ramacal for the list,
Can anyone help me identify the cause of death of these guys? I have no idea where I can go online to find the causes and the National Archives at Kew are too far as I am in France.
I would appreciate ahy help or advice.
Whilst attending a ceremony of remembrance in my local vilage Lyons La Forêt. I made a little speech about my pledge to find the names of these soldiers, asking people to come forward if they have any iinformation. I was later appproached by a good friend of mine who was one of the flag barers and he told me that someone had come to talk to him the other day about war dead who were buried in their local cemetary at Saussay La Campagne. Their names are Trooper Roebuck, Joseph Denis 14218951 and Sergeant Young, William Charles 6475016. Both were from the 15th (Scottish) Regiment Reconaiissance R.A.C. Apparently they were stopped when their vehicle was hit by a bazooka oor some such weapon, they tried to get out and were shot dead. There was another vehicle which was said to be caterpillar tracked that sped off towards the forest for cover as they were being shot at only to be blown up by a mine! I have had a look as to how many were killed iin the R.A.C between August 29th and Sept 1st on CWGC and there are nine. If anyone has any information about the cause of death of the other seven that would be great.
ROEBUCK, JOSEPH DENIS Rank: Trooper Service No: 14218951 Date of Death: 29/08/1944 Age: 20 Regiment/Service: Reconnaissance Corps, R.A.C. 15th (Scottish) Regt. Grave Reference: Cemetery: SAUSSAY-LA-CAMPAGNE CHURCHYARD Additional Information: Son of Joseph and Edith Roebuck, of Redcar, Yorkshire.
YOUNG, WILLIAM CHARLES Rank: Serjeant Service No: 6475016 Date of Death: 29/08/1944 Age: 31 Regiment/Service: Reconnaissance Corps, R.A.C. 15th (Scottish) Regt. Grave Reference: Cemetery: SAUSSAY-LA-CAMPAGNE CHURCHYARD Additional Information: Son of W. J. Young and Ellen Young, of Southall, Middlesex
If the lady believes the British liberated Lisors, yet documentary evidence says Canadians (well, how would a French woman be able to tell?) that's one factor why it has been so difficult for even our expert Pals to come up with an instant answer. It was a tracked vehicle (how certain is that, did she get close enought to see treads or is that a memory of what it might have been.
Don't think I'm discounting the truth, but after 70 years memories can play tricks on dates, places and views of events, especially if not used to seeing men and equipment used by the Allies.
If 29 August is absolutely accurate, then there were 161 men killed that day. Now we can identify the 2 in Saussay, but there are no others from that unit, nor any other burials from the tracked vehicle there. Why is that, if they were killed in close proximity, why only have 2 burials, not 5 or 6?
Are there other CWGC cemeteries or other villages nearby that have soldiers killed on 29 August?
The largest number seem to be in St Desir, but why leave 2 in Saussay? There are few "village" burials, 1 in Civieres, 1 in Etreville and 1 in Fatouville-Grestain. If more than one was killed, then there should be more than one in those, else why separate one man from his comrades?
There are 8 men from 2nd Bn Highland Light Infantry in St Desir. 3 are in adjacent graves in Plot VI D 2/3/4 which might indicate the same event; the others are in Plot VI B 2/3/4/5 and 8 which might indicate a larger action slightly earlier (being in Row B ) and a different location than the other 3 in Row D.
But it's a bit grasping at straws as all the primary information and links don't appear to correspond with what you have been told.
Kevin, the docs of which I have a copy of both were written at the time at this happened. One is a letter written by a resistant Huguette Verhague dated May 1945 and the other is an entry made by a member of the local Forestry Comission which would have been written shortly after the event. As I say I have a lead concerning someone who witnessed the death of Roebuck and Young and I need to get in touch with him. I am also looking at other avenues to carry out my research and I think that it would be good to see if any has any copies of the regiments war diaries from the 15th regiment to see what they say.
Kevin, she spoke perfect English, spent several weeks hiding British, American and canadian airmen in the loft of her hen house. Her house is on a road outside the village and I think the Brits came one end and the canadians the other. Lisors is a tiny village.
There were several British regiments in the area at the time; this I know for a fact.
There are a couple of other cemetaries with CWGC graves in the local area one being at Les Hogues. However, they may not have been buried locally. There arre incidences where airmen died in my area Lyons La Forêt but have been buried over 50 miles away at Beauvais and Caen. I don't understand myself why they were buried so far away but that is what had happened.
At the other end of the village there was another mine that was detonating killing Canadians and yet their graves are no where near the village. Once I have my Brits then I will take on the task of finding the Canadians names.
Young's death is covered in 'Scottish Lion on Patrol (I've got the recent revised version). It's placed "five miles east of Ecouis" and his car was knocked out when they contacted a "strong rearguard with guns".
Roebuck is mentioned separately as killed "in the fighting that followed the Seine crossing" which suggests a different to Young.
Idler, I have been to visit the village of Saussay La Campagne which is only about 7 miles from the Seine so the description of Roebuck's death fits. Ecouis is in fact only about 5 Kms from Ecouis, I drove through it as I needed to go to Lidl there. My friend is trying to arrange for me to meet his friend who not only sa Roebuck and Young's killing but helped bury them. He re-itterated that his friend saw a tracked vehicle speed off in the direction of the vehicle. I have since looked at Google maps and knowing the area as I do I have worked out that the shortest route to the forest would eventually take you past the chapel once in the forest. It makes going that way I know there was a regiment at Lisors and if you are in the forest that iis the only route towards the village.
Any closer to IDing a unit?
15 Recce is 'warm'. The witness tales suggest Young and Roebuck were from the same vehicle, so it wasn't them bear the chapel. If the other vehicle was 15 Recce, it could be a casualty recorded as a different date. However, I'm sure 'Scottish Lion on Patrol' mentioned 15 Recce meeting vehicles from.other units. There is a lone Recce grave in Etreville(?) On Rob's list which might be worth considering if that's in the right sort of area (I should be doing something else at this precise moment...)
I was hoing to work on this tonight but I have been to the dentist and my tooth with a new filling is killing me!!! Need to get my Single Malt out I think.
that album is set as' Private' which means only you & us Mods/Admin can see it.
If you want to let others see the photo , you'll have to set it as 'public'.
It would be the one I don't have! Paul , Recce Mitch, has the 15 Recce Missing Men file that I copied for him sometime ago-It may be worth getting him to have a look at this.
Owen, that has now been sorted. Sorry, I am a complete plum and I am new to the use of forums so there is a lot I have to learn. I have not got a clue how to use them propperly.
Went to the archiives in Kew today and looked up the war diary for 15th (S) Recce reg and strangely enough there is no mention of BOTH incidents. There is absolutely no mention of the deaths of Roebuck and Young. Quite bizzard. It doesn't even mention anything about fighting!!!
Does anyone have a copy of the war diaries of 1st Batallion Middlessex Regiment for August 1944?
On a recent visit to the UK I visited the National archives at Kew and looked up the war diary of 15 (S) Regiment. Although there is mention that they were stationed at Ecouis around the time of the killing at Saussay La Campagne there is no mention of Roebuck and Young's incident which is very strange! It does mention another place which appears to be close by the name of La Lande.
I have had a look again at the CWGC's website and there are two members of the R.A.C who are buried close by at Doudeauville En Vexin. They are John Foy, 7918451, Royal Armoured Corps, Fife and Forfar, Yeomanry and James Jerome Parker, Royal Armoured Corps, Fife and Forfar Yeomanry. Both died on August 29th. Does anyone have access to any information on these guys?
I have just found out that the recce regiment for the 7th armoured division (Desert Rats) who were at the liberation of Lyons La Foret was the 8th Royal Irish Hussars. I have CWGC b ut can not find any records of deaths for all of August. Does anyone have a copy of their regimental diary?
Separate names with a comma.