Identification of (German?) WW2 Cartridges

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Quis Separabit, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    Following on from another query relating to the identification of a (now identified as British 9mm Round) at Identification of Ammunition Round?, the cartridges below were found nearby in a location that the 2nd Battalion Royal Ulster Rifles War Diary described as being a German Machine Gun position in area around Blitterswijck , Netherlands in November/December 1944....

    Can any of the resident experts identify the cartridge from its dimensions and/or markings as shown below and confirm likely weapons that would have been used for?

    Many thanks.

    Quis Separabit

    799c0ca3-209a-440d-9a19-c7eb3a6bca5c.jpg ad47c694-8c90-499b-a8b1-bbd99419bffb.jpg ad0ca848-9ea6-451e-93af-796629eb7ca8.jpg 09275009-fab3-48ed-8375-1b9cff54e25c.jpg d3e26085-17a2-435b-8b83-9e5919ca15e6.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  2. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    That's an odd one. Corrosion or dirt might be making the internal diameter inaccurate but it looks like a 7 x 57 Mauser and not a typical WWII 7.92 x 57 Mauser. It is a little longer than 57mm but that might have something to do with that unusual looking crimp. If it wasn't found in a battle zone I'd guess at a 7 x 57 blank.

    7×57mm Mauser - Wikipedia
    7.92×57mm Mauser - Wikipedia
     
    Quis Separabit likes this.
  3. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    Does the N 59 stamp on the bottom give any clues?
     
  4. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

  5. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Quis Separabit likes this.
  6. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    I would definitely go with Dave's mention of Blank ammunition, the profile of the neck I think is to hold some kind of wad, possibly a card disc - for example if you look at this round Ref 300613. Canada 30-06 IVI Blank - Bayonets and Bullets it has a similar profile at the tip - others who have more experience with live ammunition can hopefully give their view
     
    Quis Separabit likes this.
  7. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    The German Army used a wide variety of rifle grenades, which were fired using a blank cartridge. I don't know whether the marking on the case could confirm or eliminate it as a possibility. Principal types (for searching images) were;

    gewehr sprenggranate
    gewehr panzergranate
    gross
    gewehr panzergranate
    gross
    gewehr panzergranate 46-mm
    gross gewehr panzergranate 61-mm



    Gary
     
    Quis Separabit and Dave55 like this.
  8. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    Stamp is very similar and looks like there was a range of numbers so will do more digging....
     
  9. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    Thanks - will take a closer look ..
     
  10. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Just noticed some things in this German ammo belt that have odd looking ends like your cartridge cases. They are not full length cartridges though. Maybe someone in group can explain what they are?

    upload_2020-1-14_18-23-51.png

     
  11. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Good evening Dave55,

    The bits are just metal formers to help keep the non-disintergrating belt in shape for re-use. I don't think this type of belt survived much post Maxim/Vickers type HMGs because one of their failings was that with each use the belts became more and more worn, leading to more frequent stoppages.

    Couple of close-ups below that show the former part of the belt better than the video.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
    Belt close up 1.jpg

    Belt close up 2.jpg
     
    Quis Separabit and Dave55 like this.
  12. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    And that's what I learned about WWII today. Thanks!
     
    Quis Separabit and JimHerriot like this.
  13. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    The mystery of the unusual "WW2 Cartridges" has now been resolved thanks to contributions from enthusiasts at:

    ID of "F N 59" Cartridges Found in Netherlands

    The short version:
    • they are blank .30-06, made by FN Fabrique Nationale, d’armes Luik, Belgie
    • the "59" on the stamp means they were made in 1959!
    • Both Germany and Holland were armed with US calibre arms in the 1950s and 60s, until the adoption of 7.62 Nato became universal.
    • These Cal .30 ( 7.62x63) M1909 Blanks ( neck cannelure isfor seating laquered wad) were used in Rifles M1, BAR M1918A2, and Browning Machine Guns.
    • The Netherlands also had Johnson M1941 Rifles and US M1917 Rifles.
    • On further investigation it turns out there were Dutch army exercises in the Wanssum area 25th/26th November 1959
    and further digging reveals that the same area is littered with live ammunition and used cartridges from both WW2 and the 1950s so the lesson is that it is dangerous to assume that a find from a known WW2 position actually relates to WW2!!

    Just for information, some of other ordnance found in the same area shown below.

    Gardening can obviously be a bit more challenging in a former war and/or military training zone!

    Quis Separabit

    1950s Blanks and Live .303 Rounds Found in Same Location (Gunpowder in .303 Rounds Still "Live")
    IMG-20200115-WA0000.jpg

    Identified by Dutch Bomb Squad as British Smoke Mortar Bomb
    IMG-20200115-WA0001.jpg
     
    Dave55 and JimHerriot like this.

Share This Page