Identification of Ammunition Round?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Quis Separabit, Nov 28, 2019.

  1. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    It's a very long shot, but I have asked for confirmation of the location of the building where the trousers were found, as:
    • 9 Brigade War Diary states that on 27 November 1944 the "2 RUR OP" was shelled from across the river and received "several direct hits on the house occupied by our troops"
    • location of 2 RUR OP given a 874-272 which would put it on the Eastern edge of the village with views across the River Meuse/Maas to where the enemy were located at the time
    • the RUR cap badge and 9mm (Sten?) round would fit with it being:
      • an RUR officer and/or someone with him in the OP being injured
      • an artillery FOO who was injured and possibly treated by one of 2 RUR (during which they dropped their cap badge)
      • however, if it was the same location and had been an officer, then presumably the War Diary would have mentioned them as the casualty....
    I have sent a query off to try and find the precise location of the house where the trousers were found and, if by some bizarre coincidence, it is the one mentioned in the 9 Brigade War Diary then will greatly narrow down the potential suspects....

    Is there a readily available casualty list that can be searched by unit, date and/or location?

    Thanks.

    Quis Separabit

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA Patron

    I agree it is likely a Sten round but don't rule out Browning Hi-Power.

    Per the wiki page it was popular with British Airborne and SAS

    Browning Hi-Power - Wikipedia

    Apparently German ammo didn't say 9mm on bottom.

    upload_2019-11-29_7-48-46.png
     
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  3. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    And have now just looked up 2 RUR War Diary for 29th November which confirms 1 casualty as a result of shelling of "I OP" which is presumably "Intelligence Observation Post"?

    So could be Battalion Intelligence Officer or other (assuming again this is the house in question)?

    upload_2019-11-29_12-52-52.png
     
  4. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Taking a break not sure when I will be back

    Most Officers had cloth cap badges need to check the Regiments policy on that. Could have been dropped by one of the OP party but most likely removes an officer from the scenario.
    An Artillery Op would be an RA Badge, either a gun or a bomb (see previous postings).
     
  5. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Taking a break not sure when I will be back

    Good place for an OP though. If thats it marked on the map. Also a good target but needs must when the devil drives.
    I personally find the cap badge an anomaly as infantry would be more likely to wear tin hats especially under shell fire.
    They sometimes kept their berets in a pocket perhaps even his trouser leg map pocket if it came from the casualty.
    Might even have used a beret as an extra dressing or to cushion a tourniquet. That might explain the badge being removed. The highlighted War Diary entry is interesting.

    More to come with time and other inputs me thinks.
     
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  6. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    OK - has this now taken a very big step forward, I have just received a response from the current village resident who has confirmed:

    "About the bullet itself, last Sunday he told me it was from 1943 and British Manuf. He told me the exact manufacturer but I forgot.... More details will follow.

    But then, the location, I guess we have a hit!!! Almost sure this was the OP. It's on "high ground" and the attic must have been the best place to have a look at the Germans on the other side of the river.

    Your red circle was once our proud castle. The Germans destroyed it on November 17. 1944 to prevent it being used by the Allies. So the shelling on November 27. was probably nearby and this is.......the house with the trousers. Please have a look at my 2nd Orange circle:

    Location of the house:

    Google Maps "

    So to conclude:
    • the round is a British 9mm
    • the trousers were found in the roof of a house and had with them a broken morphine ampoule plus a 2 RUR badge
    • the exact same house where the trousers were found was on 27 November 1044 used as an "I OP" by 2 RUR and received direct hits from shelling
    • I believe it is therefore reasonable to assume that they belonged to a member of 2 RUR, possibly from Battalion Intelligence (and/or potentially Royal Artillery FOO), who was in the roof and injured during the shelling
    so next step is to try and trace the casualty list for that time, place and unit..... any assistance would be greatly welcome ;-)

    Quis Separabit

    P.S. It would have helped a lot if he had just put his name in the trousers!
     
  7. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    I am assuming they carried their badges and caubeens with them at all times somewhere, as Royal Ulster Rifles troops are distinguishable by their Caubeen berets with regimental badge over the right eye and the metallic badges and can be seen in various medal awards ceremonies which took part throughout 1944-45 - see 2nd Battalion Royal Ulster Rifles in WW2: 2 RUR Honours and Awards

    In addition, 2 RUR were on the front line (mostly in slit trenches!) virtually all of the time between Sword and Bremen so it seems reasonable they must have carried them at all times (unless there was a central stock pulled out for special occasions?).

    Like the idea that the caubeen may have been used as an improvised dressing etc but either way believe it is reasonable to assume the cap badge fell out of his (or someone else's) trousers at the time of the incident (either that or he was a bit over confident and wasn't wearing his helmet when the first shell struck....).
     
  8. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Taking a break not sure when I will be back

    Round wasn't made by IMI Kynoch in Witton Birmingham by any chance?
    The Germans tried to bomb it, blew away half of the city in the process but there were others nearby making weapons.
    BSA (Birmingham Small Arms) Fort Dunlop (Tyres)with AA guns on the towers and Reynolds Tube making air frame components. Tyseley Railway Yards.
    (This should generate a few expert opinions in War Manufacture).
     
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  9. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    Hoping to find out full details of stamp on round later, and if it is an IMI Kynoch then would seem to have come full circle as my Dad lived in Erdington before the war and, having met my mum during 2 RUR's pre-invasion Combined Operations training in Hawick, they later married and moved back to Erdington where she got a job as the PA to the MD at Fort Dunlop,,,,,,
     
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  10. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I can't see a dressing pocket on those trousers They don't look like serge BD but didn't denims usually have detachable buttons ?
     
  11. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    I agree at first glance they don't look like Serge BD but I think that's just the photo and lighting, they seem to have a drill lining which is right for serge where denims are unlined (or if they are its with more denim) - denim trousers I'm sure have fixed buttons

    I noticed the missing dressing pocket too - these can be a real nuisance to get dressings in an out of so its entirely possible of someone was wounded they would tear the pocket open to get at it quickly.
     
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  12. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    I don't know much about Battle Dress but did any have a pocket below the knee on the right leg as it looks like the area circled may show a pocket there? (This being based on it being the inside of the right trouser leg which has been folded over?)....

    upload_2019-11-29_14-35-18.png
     
  13. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Not normally any kind of pocket or anything down there
     
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  14. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Taking a break not sure when I will be back

    Not being an Army Tailor I wouldn't know the finer points of Battle Dress but I did wear 1944 pattern as a Cadet.
    Attached is a photo of my headless mates doing rifle drill.
    Also a photo of a neighbour after his return from Active Service perhaps the car might help date it.
    From memory (a very dangerous statement) both Denim and that nasty woolly stuff had a pocket in the left leg which we called a map pocket.
    I don't think we were so sensitive in those days to not have called it a dressings pocket if it was one.
    I always associated the Dressings Pockets with American kit.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    the small pocket on the right thigh is specifically for the "First Field Dressing", so dressing pocket is appropriate - in terms of the pocket layout serge and denim were the same, map pocket left thigh and Dressing pocket high up right thigh
     
  16. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Taking a break not sure when I will be back

    Just shows what the mind does to you after all those decades, the times I pressed those damn things.
    I remembered the map pocket but overlooked the other one.
    Must have been bored out of my head with an iron in one hand and a damp tea towel in the other.
    Perhaps it was something to do with being left handed.
     
  17. Quis Separabit

    Quis Separabit Junior Member

    They were clearly issued with uniforms with field dressing pockets on top right and map pocket on left and perhaps was removed/torn off as suggested above.... images appears to show some stitching marks in the right type of area...

    upload_2019-11-29_16-56-8.png

    upload_2019-11-29_16-54-6.png

    upload_2019-11-29_17-0-59.png
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Taking a break not sure when I will be back

    Not going mad-yet!
    They must have made small uniforms especially for Cadets without dressings pockets to keep the price down.
    Taken circa 1962.
    Tut,tut! Dirty boots, uniform needs pressing!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  19. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Those would be 49 pattern trousers which didn't have the Dressing pocket, not sure why
     
  20. Robert-w

    Robert-w Well-Known Member

    As a result of war time experience improved multi layered dressings were developed and began to be introduced from around 1947. Possibly the new dressings wouldn't fit in the old pocket.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019

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