Human remains retrieved from crashed Stirling in Germany

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Pam C, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Well done Pam. Stick to your guns, you and all other folks involved can do it.

    And Jabo, notwithstanding any language difficulties, a big thank you for providing the info from the Hamburg end.

    Best wishes to all involved in achieving an outcome to the relatives satisfaction.

    Kind regards, always,

  2. Jabo

    Jabo Member

    @ Jim, I know that my English is not perfect and little bit plain, but I think it´s good enough to understand each other.
    Kevin, I´m with you. That what I wrote was the opinion from Louise Dorr.
    The first what I was looking for, was the original entry for the Vechta Cemetery: "Roussseau and unknown english airmen."
    I asked Louise for some burial and identification records but get no satisfying answer.
    I believe that the remains were buried after the war without a full identification process. It was all plausible for the post war Investigators that this what was found in Grave 117 on Vechta Cemetery could only be the whole Rousseau crew.

    Pam C and JimHerriot like this.
  3. Jabo

    Jabo Member

    I counted 12 missions for the original Rousseau crew since September 1942. The last flight was the 5th mission for H. W. Pullar.
    But this is from the www. I will try to get a original source may the 75 Sqd. summary of events.

    Pam C likes this.
  4. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Dear Jens-Michael, please understand that I meant no offence to you with reference to your posts here regarding language (your command of English is much better than my German).

    You and the folks in Hamburg are without doubt doing a top job, prima no less!

    Kind regards, always,

    Pam C likes this.
  5. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Digressing....... but this is an interesting article on war dead recovery.

    Apparently the US services DNA laboratory in Hawaii have excelled in identifying war dead from remains.A few years ago they were able to put a name to a navy aviator who had been interned as the Unknown Warrior from the Vietnam conflict.

    He Was Killed at Pearl Harbor. Here’s Why It Took 78 Years to Bring Him Home
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
    Pam C likes this.
  6. Pam C

    Pam C Member

    Hi Jabo et all
    I hope our emails have helped, I still cant understand why Louise is insisting on having the remains handed over to the British Embassy- why the rush. Funny contradiction about needing to know the plane identity when the remains don't matter.....
    If they identified the pilot and they know what plane he was flying that night well it's a bit of a no brainer.
    I'm very glad that the JCCC don't have jurisdiction in Germany.
    Pse keep me posted if there is anything I can do to help.
    Cheers to you all from Aus.
    JimHerriot likes this.
  7. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    If this is as reported, then there is some irony in the name Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre
    MOD War Detectives – the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre Commemorations team - what we do
    Our work is varied and interesting and includes the following;
    • when remains of British personnel killed in historic campaigns dating back to the Great War are found, the JCCC will try to identify them
    • where new evidence confirms the name of an individual already buried in an “unknown” British war grave, the JCCC will verify or decline the evidence
    We are solely responsible for:
    • researching military and historical records to help confirm the identity of a casualty where possible
    • investigating military and personal items found with a casualty
    • genealogical research to find casualties’ families
    • working with the host nation, Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC), the historic branches of each of the armed services and regimental contacts
    • organising DNA testing if necessary where casualties have recently been found
    • arranging a military funeral/service of rededication
    • hosting a reception after a burial or rededication service
    • liaison with casualties’ families
    Although we work with many different organisations, JCCC is the ultimate authority responsible for naming a casualty or previously unknown grave.

    Attend A ‘Full Military Honours’ Funeral or Rededication Service
    Our services are free to attend and a list of future services can be found at our future services and current appeals.

    Help Identify a Missing Soldier, Sailor or Airman?
    The MOD War Detectives need your help to trace family of British casualties found on historical battlefields. See our future services and current appeals.

    Giving A Name to Those Found On Historical Battlefields
    Following the discovery of the remains of British Service personnel from historic conflicts, the MOD War Detectives attempt to identify the remains. We work closely with overseas authorities and the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (who recover remains in France and Belgium) to assess what artefacts or identifying uniform fragments may have been found with the remains. Dog tags were commonly made of compressed fibres which may have decomposed over the years. However, metal shoulder titles and other items often still survive and these can identify a Regiment with which the individual served.

    If no identification is possible from the artefacts found, the team works with the single Service Historical Branches, Regimental museums and others to research when a particular Regiment was in the area where the remains were found. Analysis of war diaries and other records can then allow a shortlist of missing personnel to be created.

    Once a shortlist has been compiled, the War Detectives use genealogical research to create a family tree for each individual on the list. Official records, and where needed media appeals, are used to trace surviving family members, who may be asked to provide a DNA sample in the hope of a match being found to the remains, confirming an identity.
    Tricky Dicky likes this.
  8. Pam C

    Pam C Member

    Excellent Kevin, I have used this - hope it will help them change their mind.
  9. Jabo

    Jabo Member

    May someone can help me in reading the movement chart of the mid upper gunner from Stirling R9247, Sgt. John Fellows?
    He arrived in UK on 11th June 1942 and was posted to No. 3 PRC. On 22nd July 1942 he was moved to No. 7 AGS in Stormy Down.
    First ist looks like a refreshing course , but he stay there until October 1942. On 18th October 1942 he was moved within the AGS to No. 7 AGS (P. S). For what stands the P. S. ? Practice Station?

    On 18th December 1942 he is "postedt" from No. 7 AGS to No. 1 Depot (NE). NE= Non Effective used in all cases of loss of life.
    John never was a member of No. 75 Squadron. Was it usual to borough personal from the AG Schools to combat units?
  10. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Gunner Tours

    PS is sometimes an abbreviation for Permanent Staff - so it is a move from being a student to joining the staff in some capacity. That may have been planned. E.g. an instructor attends the course as a refresher before teaching the next.
    alieneyes likes this.
  11. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Hi Jens-Michael,

    See my post #12 on this. Fellows took an air gunnery instructor's course at Stormy Down from early September to mid October.

    A look at the PORs of any ORB will show that posting AGs from an air gunnery school straight to squadron was often done.


    Harry Ree likes this.
  12. hucks216

    hucks216 Member

    This aircraft was claimed by both night fighters and flak. Claimed by Hauptmann Walter Milius of 1./Nachtjagdgeschwader-3 flying a Bf-110 from Gilze-Rijen airbase who attacked the Stirling at 500m at 1956. Flak also claimed this aircraft with 2.,3. & 4./schwere-Flak-Abteilung 163, 1./Reserve-Flak-Abteling 222 and 2. & 3./schwere-Flak-Abteilung 606 all making a claim.
    Pam C and AB64 like this.
  13. Jabo

    Jabo Member

    last movement was within the No. 7 AGS. He changed to the permanent Staff. His missing status is also noted under No. 7 AGS.
    He never was member of the No. 75 Sqd.
  14. Jabo

    Jabo Member

    I talked to Jörg Helbig an Theo Boiten, both authors and night fighter experts. According to Walter Milius "Leistungsbuch" (nearly the same like a log book) he flew Dornier Do 217 J. All AA-units were located south of DELMENHORST and BREMEN. Roughly on the line of the Highway # A1. That leads to the conclusion that the Stirling, or one of the Stirlings, take a course to much north of the planed track, which was Zuijdersea - Dummer Lake - Steinhuder Lake - enroute along the "Mittellandkanal" (a canal from west to east) - Fallersleben KDF works (Volkswagen). Bremen is 50 Kilometres (31 Miles) in the northeast of Vechta. I believe that they realized that they where to much north and turned south to find the Dummer or Steinhuder Lake. There Milius was circling and waiting for prey.

    Pam C likes this.
  15. Tony H

    Tony H Junior Member

    Further info on this loss as follows;

    It was intercepted at 500M near Vechta airfield by a Night-Fighter captained by Hptm Walter Milius (I/NJG3) and shot down at 1956 for his 4th Abschusse

    It was also claimed by Flak of 2-4/schw Flak Abt 163, 1/Res Flak Abt 222 and 2 & 3/schw Flak Aby 606 "Stirling nr Vechta Airfield 1956 Hrs"

    Source: Boiten's NCA 1943 V3


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