HQ 29th Armoured Brigade at the end of WWII

Discussion in 'Higher Formations' started by neilt, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. neilt

    neilt Junior Member

    My father (7896058. TER. Douglas Turner, R. TKS.) told me he was one of the first to break down the gates to Admiralty Head Quarters in Kiel in 1945 and came back with a very interesting book called 'Militärgeographische Angaben über England Südküste’ or 'Military Geographic Information about the South Coast of England' dated 15th August 1940 from the Admiral’s office.


    It is rather fragile but full of the most interesting maps and copies of old picture postcards for the planning of Operation Sealion. I’m wondering if anyone can identify the german officers written on the inside front cover?



    He also told me that they got the local brewery going again in Schleswig?


    Anybody have any other stories about what happened at the end of the war?


    Neil
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    These are the two most interesting (I suspect) of the Brigade war diaries at the National Archives....Be warned these files can be over a 1,000 pages for 12 months though.

    WO 171/627 29 Armoured Brigade. H.Q. 01 January 1944 - 31 December 1944

    WO 171/4345 29 Armoured Brigade. H.Q. 01 January 1945 - 31 December 1945

    Regards
    Andy
     
  3. JoKloster

    JoKloster Junior Member

    The handwritten text on the inside front cover says:
    5 times/examples received - september 10th, 1940
    Distributed: Btl. (Batallion), 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th kp (Kompanie); each 1 time/example= 5 times/examples
    f.d.R (für die Richtigkeit/to secure rightfulness) - gez. (gezeichnet/signed) Ruederer
    signature reads maybe as: Rohwedder (?)
    C. (Companie?) u. (und/and) Btl. (Battalions) Adj. (Adjut/dant)

    I just tried to find information about any brewery in Schleswig in 1945... the usual suspects didn't brew in 1945- seems to me that the town was run out of beer... how unsatisfying for thirsty soldiers. Good they made an effort.

    Best regards
    Jochen Meyer
     
  4. grimmy

    grimmy Guest

    Neil,

    Some extracts from the 23rd Hussars (29th Brigade) history:

    Our eyes were diverted northwards to a little town on the west coast of Schleswig-Holstein. The town was called Husum. There the Colonel was to set up his headquarters as Military Commander of Husum Kreis.

    ............

    There was a cheering piece of news of a large barracks near to the place but as it was known that Brigade Headquarters had designs on this, our hopes were hardly improved.

    ............

    When, therefore, the word to move was given on the 10th [May], the advance party set off determined to beat all comers. Our future for many months might depend on it.

    This advance party went twenty-four hours ahead of the Regiment only to find that units of the Seventh Armoured Division had already invaded parts of the town. A little later Brigade Headquarters arrived and confirmed their intention of moving into the barracks. This was a bad moment indeed. But Major Blacker, nihil desperandum, managed to win both the former and the latter, convincing Seventh Armoured that they were outside their area and the Brigadier that he would be better placed in Schleswig!
     
  5. neilt

    neilt Junior Member

    Thanks Grimmy and Jochen for your input.

    Jochen thank you for letting me post the information you put on my visitors page here:

    Dear Neil Turner

    You wrote: It's amazing how useful websites like these are in order to piece together snippets of information. I have looked on the internet for information regarding the 29th Armoured Brigade for about 8 years and this is the first for me.


    I think I can imagine your thoughts while receiving information and collecting bits from the internet, after many years waiting and searching...

    I myself became astonished, when I at last found your pictures of your fathers book. Thank you very much for sharing it with us.

    I live in Denmark today, but grew up in the area around Schleswig, only some 30 km south of the Danish border to Germany, a large area with national minorities on each side of the border.
    I was born in 1968 and grew up in the village Moldenit, 6 km east of Schleswig. The village is mentioned as the last place in the itinarium of the 29th Armoured Brigade in your book. Actually I never have dreamed of being able to get more information of what happened at this place in 1945.
    Therefore I write to you to ask for further information, pictures or good ideas, where to find diaries ore interviews, which might shed light on views on the inhabitants of my home village from the British soldiers.

    Cameras and weapons equally were forbidden at once, when the British went into the area in the beginning of May 1945. My grandmother told me, these items were burnt on a large pile on the marketplace in Schleswig; ancient weapons together with "modern" rifles, cameras and stuff.
    Thus this period and the following experiences as well as the next years are actually not documented in private pictures, not only in my family but quite globally. You might call the year 1945/46 and époque without pictures.

    What I know about the actions Your father has taken part in at Moldenit, is what I have been told of my grandfather (born 1911), grandmother, born 1913 and my mother, born 1938. Also to men, born in about 1930 or 1935 have told my some impressions.
    The 9th or the 10th of may there came inhabitants from the manor "Gut Winning", located at the shore of the fjord Schlei south of Moldenit, only 1 km from my grandparent's place. The place had been occupied by the British and the people had been forced to move out of their houses within very short time. They wanted to move in at my grandparent's. Before they could agree about the how and whats the foreign soldiers came to the house and also my grandparents had to leave the living house immediately, only taking the most necessary stuff with them. I was told that the noise of many tanks dominated the whole village. They lived afterwards the next months in the cow stable, which the cows just had left for the summer period. At the manor in Winning, I was told, the officers had taken dwelling and my family's home was occupied by the Unteroffiziere (sorry, I am not familiar with ranks and equivalents...). Other houses in Moldenit were occupied in the same way and I have heard, that Jürgenses barn was used as a cinema, and there was a mechanic restore place at the Hansen farm. On the field behind the Hansen place tanks and vehicles were parked and maintained. There were tanks with large shields useful for removing earth piles and there were bridge building tanks, the two men, then boys, told me. The British soldiers were quoted, that they preferred the village Moldenit with houses that had hard brick tile roofs more than they wanted to live in the houses of the neighbor village Klensby, which was actually closer to the barracks at Schleswig, where the commandment of Schleswig was stationed. Klensby only had thatched roofs, and they didn't want to live in negro huts. (I only mention this for documentary reason, not at all for any other purpose; it's actually transmitted through several people’s minds, without any security for, that any British soldier ever expressed an opinion, that could match this impression by Germans, especially a person born 25 years after the actual meeting of the two cultures without the optimal possibilities to communicate properly...)
    My mother remembers that her family tried to rescue wasted food from the soldiers who lived in their house and who just threw the waste from their kitchen out. Another story I have heard was, that a British soldier once shot a stork. My mother, then a 7 year old girl was shocked; she had heard, the small babies would be delivered by "the stork" and now had to give up her hope to get another sister or brother. Luckily the life for her parents in the stable showed to be easy enough, so she could welcome a sister in may 1946, though the local stork had died!
    My grandfather obviously was one of the few who were able to communicate in English. I imagine, that he was not very good at this and I wonder, what the British soldiers thought about this- and how their views on and experiences with the Germans at all were. I know, they were ordered not to fraternize. On the other hand I have heard that there have been some contacts especially to young women in the village. So what is possible to trace still in our days? Are there still pictures preserved or notes, diaries, articles, which could illustrate this uneasy meeting of two nations in a very personal way? My family did not write diary and there are no pictures. First due to my reading on the internet within the last year I became aware of the circumstance that those soldiers from Moldenit actually had been through the battlefields of Belgium, The Ardennes and had part in the liberation of the concentration camp at Bergen-Belsen as well as the capture of Dönitz in Flensburg.

    I hope very much, that you read these lines well knowing, that I am very much aware of the respect I and the many other Germans also of my generation owe to those soldiers who took responsibility, risked and gave their life in those days.
    I also hope, you are interested in these remarks. I just want to offer some more information to your (hi)story.

    With the best regards

    Jochen Meyer
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hi Neil,

    I've sent you a couple of PM's ref your order and payment but not had a reply.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  7. neilt

    neilt Junior Member

    Dear all,

    I've tagged this thread and a couple of others that pertain to the 29th Armoured brigade with the 11th Armoured Division in an attempt to draw in more interest.

    I'm not sure if this will work, maybe more experienced 'threaders' can advise?

    Neil
     
  8. neilt

    neilt Junior Member

    Hi Andy,

    I've just come back from holiday.

    Money transferred today with message.

    Regards Neil
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Thanks Neil-I'll sort a disc out for you tonight. Do you want me to ship it to the BFPO address? Will you get it? I'm very familiar with BFPO on a personal level ;)

    Ref your Q you could ask Owen (Sorry Owen) to merge all three and tidy them up. Ref the diaries I would upload them by month using something like January 1945 then February 1945 etc for each post and a sub heading.

    Hows that sound?
     
  10. neilt

    neilt Junior Member

    Just looked up the journey taken by the 11th Armoured Division in 1945 (see attached map from Taurus Pursuant) and my father's account of being the first to break down the gates to Admiralty Head Quarters in Kiel in 1945. They don’t seem to match.


    Jochen Meyer’s translation of the inside front cover of the 'Militärgeographische Angaben über England Südküste’ seems to suggest it is of army origin?


    Has anybody any ideas?


    Another story he told me relates to him and some of his mates, who once settled in Schleswig, set about borrowing a steel hulled, German boat for a tour of the coast, which they did for three days until a notice was posted in their billet, warning soldiers that magnetic mines were still located in the harbour!


    I wonder if the picture by A R Keen is the same said boat?


    I attach scanned pages from ‘Taurus Pursuant’ Chapter XIII ‘Coup De Grace’ and the ‘Epilogue’ for more information on the last part of 11th Armoured Division’s involvement in WWII.


    Neil Turner[FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
     

    Attached Files:

  11. JoKloster

    JoKloster Junior Member

    Dear Neil Turner
    Thank you for your message.
    As you propose I ad hereby the picture from your fathers book together with my snapshot which accidentally shows the same building in the background.
    To other readers: The historical picture is from this page: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/unit-documents/25396-29th-armoured-brigade-war-diaries-ardennes.html
    I also add screenshots from googlemaps showing the house in question in the village Moldenit near Schleswig.

    The Booklet from your father's visit in Kiel actually is from army posession (Heer) not the navy.

    The pictur of mooring boats maybe shows fishing vessels off Massholm, placed close to the estuary of the Schlei, where your father's party actually has been on a boat trip. Take a look at: Fangglück | Das Virtuelle Klassentreffen Do you recognise your father?
    Little Jimmy- Heinz Johannsen: Maybe we should talk on the phone? your also wellcome to send me an email; I also have seen your notice at Gerd tams's page ...:)

    Best regards
    Jochen Meyer
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Little Jimmy

    Little Jimmy Junior Member

    Hallo Jochen rufe mich bitte mal an. 04331 448855 herzl Grüße und ein gutes neues Jahr. Heinz Johannsen
     
  13. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    As I have explained elsewhere on this site I have a particular personal interest in the history of the British Army in Schleswig Holstein in the immediate post war period.

    May I may a couple of comments?

    My sources are
    1.The G War Diaries for Headquarters 8 Corps for Summer 1945
    2.The G War Diaries for HQ 11 Armoured Division for Summer 1945
    3.The G War Diaries for HQ 15 Scottish Division for Summer 1945
    4.The G War Diaries for 4 (independent) Armoured Brigade for Summer 1945
    5.The G War Diaries for 6 (independent) Guards Armoured Brigade for Summer 1945

    Firstly the background to and actual "unauthorised entry" (by HQ 8 Corps) of The (Target) Force Group, under command Major Tony Hibbert, contrary to the 8 Corps " Stand Fast" instructions in early May 1945 is well documented on the internet and elsewhere. The Group, complying with orders issued by HQ 21 Army Group, was mainly comprised of Special Forces including 1st Special Air Service Regiment (the father of an acquaintance was a member of the Regiment and participated in this Operation.)

    The T Force personnel were replaced/reinforced the following day by elements of 46 Infantry Brigade of 15 Scottish Division with 4 (Tank) Battalion Coldstream Guards providing an armour capability. They in turn were replaced in Kiel by the HQ 8 Corps controlled Artillery Regiments retitled, reroled and reorganised as the Kiel Artillery Brigade (by now the Royal Navy, temporarily reinforced by a Royal Marines Infantry Brigade, had also established a significant presence in the town and dockyards in particular).

    Todate I have found no evidence of an RTR Regiment being based in Kiel proper. However 4 Armoured with two RTR Regiments under command did assume occupation duties for the nearby Kreis Ploen from 6 Guards Brigade in late June 1945.

    Secondly (and Little Jimmy and I have already discussed the matter privately) I was fascinated to read the contributions regarding Moldenit, it was one of the reasons I registered on this site.

    The relevent War Diaries imply that Headquarters 29 Armoured Brigade was established in the Rathaus (Town Hall) in the centre of town. Again to date I have come across no official input on the presence of the HQ Echelon (and supporting Signals Squadron?) in Moldenit. Elsewhere in the town proper 8 Battalion The Rifle Brigade were in the Schloss and an RAF Group Headquarters had taken over the former Kriegsmarine Seaplane Base. Almost certainly,but I have yet to finally confirm, a number of Sapper units under the command of a DCRE had moved into the small Moltke Kaserne in the centre of town which they promptly renamed Kitchener Barracks.

    But for this site I would never have found the true story of Moldenit (and the reasons for its occupation). I am most grateful
     
  14. JoKloster

    JoKloster Junior Member

    Concerning Moldenit:
    The headquarter, due to oral tradition, was situated at the "Gut Winning", which is part of the parish Moldenit but occupies the southern part of it. Der Knick-eine Wallhecke
     
  15. Little Jimmy

    Little Jimmy Junior Member

    Hello Mr. Turner, Very interesting stories , thank you.
    The 29th A. Brigade wake up my interest and I have weanwhile many Photos. received from Ex Members. The oldesr 97 , S/Sgt. Kershaw. Im preparing a Photo Book. I would like to talk to you if you wish. please give me your Phone Nr. M;y Phone Nr. is 0049 4331 448855 Best regards Heinz Johannsen
     
  16. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    The story of Moldenit continues with a three way exchange of documents between JoKloster, Little Jimmy and myself

    Jo has sent me a souvenir menu of a celebratory meal to mark Victory in Europe. The Front cover clearly shows it was Headquarters Squadron Headquarters 29 Armoured Brigade ie the Administrative Echelon not the Brigadier and his Operational Staff which was based in Moldenit (probably with the Gut Winning manor house as the main officers' mess)

    Jo also sent me copies of a couple of British Military passes which were issued from an address in Schleswig town which I have yet to identify exactly but again this indicates Headquarters (Main) was in the town centre not Moldenit

    Again watch this space
     
  17. neilt

    neilt Junior Member

    Dear all,

    The following pages were copied by DREW 5233 and should shed some light on the location of HQ 29th Armoured Brigade in Moldenit May - August 1945.

    I am looking forward to seeing your pictures Heinz.

    Regards

    Neil Turner
     

    Attached Files:

    Drew5233 likes this.
  18. neilt

    neilt Junior Member

    I was interested to know what the secret weapon was that is mentioned on 8th May 1945 (230.gif).

    I found this reference taken from a book by Mark Lynton called "Accicental Journey," who was a tanker with the Third Royal Tank Regiment of the Eleventh Armored Division.

    German armor night-fighting unit used against Russians

    "We moved from Neumuentser to Bad Segeberg that same day - an idyllic little resort town by a lake and surrounded by immense pine forests...some of our divisional patrols reached both Luebeck and Flensburg without encountering any resistance, and Eleventh Armored had effectively cut Germany in two. west of the dividing line, on the British side, the German forces were dissolving in a relatively orderly fashion; neither side made any attempt to fight, and the Germans, sometimes in large formations, at times in small groups, all of them frequently still armed, were trudging off in various directions, most of them presumably heading for home...O)n our second night in Segeberg, the first in a while on which we all had baths, a change of socks and underwear, and a concomitant attitude, one of the tank sentries reported a German officer outside, who was insisting on seeing someone who spoke German. That was how it all began.

    Hauptmann Geiger was a short, swathy, twinkle-eyed man, about my age, massively self-assured and no wonder. A Knight's Cross was not unusual onm a Panzer captain, but the 'hand-to-hand combat clasp' in gold was. (Hitler invented the weirdest nomenclature for decorations.) This particular bauble meant that Geiger had fought hand-to-hand at least twenty-five times, which, for a tank person, is either heoric or careless. He was wearing a full German tank uniform, a rather stunning ensemble based, I always suspected, on some road company performance of Lehar (a composer who could fairly be called a Hungarian Gilbert & Sullivan), which Hitler may have seen as a young man. Jet-black all over (tankmen were frequently confused with Waffen SS, which upset both parties) with a profusion of scarlet and silver pipings, black half-calf boots ending in some nifty black plus fours (rather like a golfer in the morning), and a liberal sprinkling of death head insignas (another SS-related gimmick that made for misunderstandings), the overall impression was faintly ludicrous, but German tank crews were nothing to laugh at.

    Geiger had informed me that his unit had had us under surveillance for the past few days and gave me a totally accurate report of our itinerary to prove it...his commanding officer had come to the conclusion that we would be the people he would surrender to, provided we observed his conditions. these simply were, that the unit - with all the men and equipment - should be handed over directly to a British team of technicians and scientists, and go with them to England, rather than be detained in any local prisoner's cage.

    Geiger went on to explain that his was one of two tank units that had been in operation on the Russian front using equipment so secret and so effective that it represented another era in tank warfare. Their sister unit had been wiped out, but not before destroying whatever the gadget was (which clearly had limits to its effectiveness; otherwise how come?)...Geiger assured me that our scientists would be simply ecstatic at the sight of whatever they had...So I joined Geiger in his Kuebelwagen (the military forerunner of the Volkswagen and almost as good as a jeep), and we drove for about twenty minutes out of Segeberg and along various forest paths till challenged by first one sentry, and fifty yards beyond, another, and yet another; the kind of security you associate with guarding the Coca Cola formula! We ended up in the depths of the forest, in the middle of a tank leaguer, all of them Tigers, Panthers, and Jagdtigers (A Jagdtiger, like a Jagdpanther, did not have a rotating turret, but carried an extra-heavy gun mounted on a fixed platform and was principally used to destroy other tanks) - about as scary a sight as I had seen since Normandy. everything and everybody looked alarmingly competent, tough and neat, and if anyone was playing at soldiering around here, I was the only one. The officer commanding the whole lot, a Count Dohna-Strelitz, littered with decorations just like Geiger, was impeccably courteous but managed to convey the evident disparity in our ranks, experience, and social backgrounds did not warrant idle conversation. It took five minutes to establish 'ground rules,' and another five for the entire unit to be on its way, and out we came again from the woods, Geiger and I leading the convoy in his Kuebelwagen, and a 88-mm gun of the first Tiger literally ten feet behind us, the closest I have ever been to a moving Tiger. Do not let them tell you any different - it was scary.

    There must have been about twenty of these monsters and perhaps thirty half-tracks and trucks, and the whole lot came thundering into Segeberg to the bafflement and apprehension of the locals, who had very much an 'enough already' attitude as far as the war was concerned. To their evident relief, this did not turn out to be some last ditch counteroffensive; instead all the Tigers, Panthers, and trucks formed up in a leaguer on the local football field, tightly guarded by their own crews, and we, in turn, had a guard ring around them - real Chinese box fashion.

    ...Geiger and Count Dohna, evidently convinced of our zeal and our discretion, promised us a tiny preview that night, just a glimpse, rather like throwing a single fish to a seal.

    It was a moonless night, and I was once again heading out into the countryside. Geiger was at the wheel and Teddy and I were in the back of that Kuebelwagen. First he drove at a speed which dimmed-out headlights allowed, then he switched them off and really hit the accelerator. It was so dark a night that we could barely see him in the front seat, and while he had not given the impression of being nuts, I guess you do not have to be Japanese to go kamikaze. Before we could think of some way of saving ourselves, Geiger just as abruptly slowed down, stopped, and suggested that Teddy take the wheel and watch the road through a particular portion of the windscreen. Teddy did, said, 'well, I'll be damned' and proceeded to go even faster than Geiger.

    Then it was my turn, and there it was: if you looked through a rectangular area in the windscreen, maybe six-inches-by-four, the entire road ahead was clearly visible in a pale greenish light for perhaps fifty yards or more. That was it - the 'black searchlight,' as some garbled press reports called it many years later. Geiger told us that every tank and vehicle in his unit was fitted with it, that the tank beam was considerably longer and had enabled them to mount numerous successful night attacks against Russian armor. I have no idea how it worked, and I doubt whether they knew; the fact was that, if you threw a switch, you got that beam, which was totally invisible unless you looked through the screen.

    So we drove right back to the mess and called our masters then and there, told them all about it and expressed the conviction that if they showed no interest the Yanks would, which was one sure way to get some reaction out of them. Needless to add, the Americans got it in the end, but at least we tried.

    By the morning the place was swarming with eggheads and security wallahs, one peering and poking about and the other making us swear all kinds of blood oaths that we had not seen what we had seen, and by mid-day everybody was gone...I never saw any of them again nor heard anything about the gadget , until sometime in the 1960s, when there were press reports about night-fighting equipment of extraordinary efficacy, which British and American tanks had been using in Korea, and of which prototype was a German World War II development."

    I'm amazed this technology was kept secrest for so long? Does anybody know if the Russians managed to aquire this technology too?
     
  19. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    IR was not a german invention and the technology pre-dates WW2.
    Here is a Russian night driving set up on a BT-7 tank in the 1930's .

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The account by Lynton contains many 'facts' than can not be correct and should be used with some caution.
    IR technology was not mature enough to survive long in the front line and the Allies wisely only used it as a night driving aid. Germany driven by desperation tried to perfect it as a way of night-fighting. They did not succeed
    At the end of WW2 The Allies were actively looking for German IR signatures and had their own sets of IR detectors in stock ready to be issued to front line units if the Germans tried to use it in combat.
     
  20. JoKloster

    JoKloster Junior Member

    Thank you very much, DREW 5233 and Neil Turner. That will take some time to study for me. What a great source, which i never ever had imagined to get the possibility to read!
    Yours
    Jochen
     

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