How to apply for a Nominal Roll entry for LESLIE HAYDE, or other information

Good Day. T.D., Thank you for sharing the Army Number Block Allocations of which there are many, and such a learning curve to see more information.

 

Hi Kyle

Is it me - cant find a Hayde on that sheet?? - which article is it in

TD

 

TD: When is your optician's appointment?
It's buried close to the centre on the lower half of that page."Girl's name withheld." Says the soldier was accused of assaulting a girl.
However, as we know, just because a surname is unusual, it sometimes still can be more than one of that name!
Another piece that makes 1912 less likely. I can see why everyone gets confused as that magazine appears to be all one issue, but I don't think it can be as parts look fresher than the discoloured 1912 parts. Only whoever put it together could know what dates from when.

 

I dont know as I cant read the appointment card

TD

 

A few examples of cross country entries;-


Folkestone, Hythe, Sandgate & Cheriton Herald 25 February 1933

Dover Express 02 March 1934


Dover Express 03 March 1933


Kyle

 

Hi Kevin,

You are quite right of course regarding the name ,however how many Pte L Hayde would be in the Buffs? The `Borden Camp` reference had me googling and I found it was the home of the 2nd Buffs prior and after their deployment to Palestine they were only in Palestine until Dec 1936 then back to Borden ? Then redeployed to Palestine in 1938?
I dont know how or when he could be deployed (the newspaper is from Feb 36?) but if he was jailed would that be enough to forfeit his medal?


The British Empire, Imperialism, Colonialism, Colonies

Kyle

 

Kyle: Point well made, but it was my intent to try and clarify that "The Dragon" articles were not ALL from what appeared to be a single 1912 issue of the magazine, but a composite of pages from different years. As a safeguard, the L Hayde references MIGHT have been father and son, both following military careers, one pre WW1 and the son in the 1930's.
From the newspaper clippings you have found, I'm now confident that Private L Hayde was in the 2nd Buffs ONLY in the 1930's.
Whatever charges were made against him, he didn't die in WW2 as no CWGC entry, so perhaps he was time expired before WW2?

 

Good Day, to Kevin and to Kyle.

As I continue to learn about posting, do you both get to read this single message, or will I need to write back to the originator of a post should I need to reference their help?
Thank you for the news items regarding Cross Country results. HOW DO YOU HAVE ACCESS to newspapers to obtain these three reports?
I am trying to establish that the Cross-Country runner, Pte L. Hayde:

• is the same person featured in the news about Farnham assault,
• is the soldier in the Palestine conflict/administration is the same person,
• is a soldier with a service number showing within a block of number for the Military Police,

There has been reference to a Pte Hayde in 1st The Buffs, and 2nd Buffs, Cross-Country Running
What cannot be understood is why there is not a clear reference to LESLIE HAYDE's army record, per se.

• Do you gentlemen have access to finding out what occurred after the court case that was set for Camberley, Surrey, in newspaper reports? I have just had a thought that the report of a witness said he saw 'Hayde at Brockhead Common, Bordon', after the complainant had made her statement.
• Do Cross-country runners set out to practise running outside of campgrounds?

Do you have newspaper cuttings to share or direct me on how to find them as to the outcome of the court case? What you offer may count towards finding out it the Cross-Country runner did indeed go to the Palestine in 1939?
The sheet covering the Palestine soldiers who did not receive their medals had Discharge against many them, indicating that many were not able to receive their medals if they were moved on before 1942.

Best advice now, on how Pte L. Hayde has a service number that can be the essential lead.

Thank you both.
From Margret

 

Margret: I'll let Mr Jinks explain about newspaper archives - he impresses me!

I thought we'd knocked on the head the idea he was ever in the Military Police, as it's simply a confusion over the blocks of Service Numbers.
I'm pretty certain he was in the 2nd Bn The Buffs (East Kent Reg't) in the 1930's.
In any event, HAD he been convicted in 1939 then I doubt he'd have been accepted into the Military Police!

However, what is strange is the almost complete absence of him in the "usual" Records, Births, Marriage and Deaths.
What I'm wondering if "Hayde" is an onomatopoeic rendition of what was heard as his surname, and therefore he exists as, for example, Hayday......

Leslie Hayday. Born 16 June 1906. Baptised 4 July 1906 in Woolwich Garrison.
Mother Martha Jane. Father William Henry Hayday. Corporal, Royal Garrison Artillery.
What we have to factor in is regional dialects and accents, both by the speaker and also the hearer (reporter).
Leslie may well have thought that was the spelling of his surname, but not as was recorded at Birth....
Just to say that this Lesley Hayday died 4th Qtr 1994 in Devon.
Otherwise I'm out - of ideas.....

 

It seems we may be into the realms of guesswork as Kevin describes above. The only other factual routes that could be followed are:

1. Contact the Regimental museum and discuss with them
2. Contact the newspaper and see if the have any additional information on the article
3. Contact the Police/Justice system in that area and see if they have any documents that relate to the case - perhaps recordings of court proceedings, information on solicitors that may still exist

Question - who would have defended him (if a defense happened) Army solicitors or civilian

This is one of a very threads where no information about his birth, death, marriage etc has not been forthcoming, this does lead to thoughts that perhaps his surname is incorrect as the post above, or the possibility that was was not born and did not die within the frontiers of England & Wales.

TD

added:
Just been searching Ancestry and as another possible surname howabout 'Hyde'??

 

Just to complicate the matter further I found this:


We know that the address is right and KF must be Kathleen Fenton. Looking through the GRO it could be Michael Fenton, registered Q1 1913 at Elham, Vol 2a Page 2142. This is some time before her marriage to Thomas Hayde so may not be his child, however did he take him under his wing or was the baby adopted by someone else altogether?

Just for family history reasons I suggest you investigate further and it could be worthwhile sending for the birth certificate just in case it provides further information.

To answer your question British Newspapers 1710-1963 | findmypast.co.uk is a good source for newspapers, a subscription is required.

 

Margret, I think that it is fair to say that we are all confused here owing, as mentioned above, to the almost complete lack of records for Leslie Hayde.

If at the end of the day the objective is to obtain the service records for Leslie Hayde then you will first need to obtain his birth/death certificate, have a look at the requirements here.
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

I think therefore you should concentrate on the genealogical issues, however I think this is complicated by the international characteristics of the family.

Your very first post mentioned the family of Thomas Hayde and Mary Fenton so I am assuming that this is correct.

As I mentioned in my post #5 they separated in 1927 and the newspaper article that I sent you mentions that there was “one child by the marriage”, this I believe was Doris Eileen born 10 July 1920.

In 1939 Katheen (Kathrine) Hayde was living with her married sister Mary Elizabeth Mayne, Mary was born in Jubalpore, India. The other two females were Eileen Mary Morfee and Doris Kathleen Mayne – these are Mary’s children. Note that there are two closed, and therefore unknown, records with them, also Patrick Fenton at the bottom of the page.

Note that Mary’s eldest son, Harry Augustus Mayne was KIA 25 August 1918. He was Private 57649 2/4 Bn. York & Lancaster Regt.


Another son, Percy Seymour Mayne was living in Tasmania in 1926.

Thomas and Kathleen’s daughter (and only child), Doris Eileen, married Francis Fitzsimmons. She died 11 August 1983 with an address given as Bermuda.

I also sent you the 1939 register for what may be Thomas Hayde possibly living with the ‘other woman’, Edith Moore, mentioned when he separated from his wife. Thomas was born 14 February 1895 and quite possibly in Ireland. Note 4 closed records. You will have noticed that in this document Thomas’s surname was originally Moore and overwritten with Hayde.

With all family history problems like this there is really only one place to start and that is to get certificates to prove relationships.

If Thomas Hayde had separated from Kathleen, I would be interested in who was the informant on his death certificate, also did he (or other family members) leave a will naming beneficiaries and administrator. Wills are a good source of information.

Other than that I am running out of ideas but I like TD’s advice to try and get details of the criminal case.

 

Margret,

Its okay we can see your messages The newspaper articles are from sources such as those which Tony described . I`m still a little puzzled regarding the lack of service records and irrespective of other sites claims these can be obtained from only one source and that was highlighted by Clive (CL1) in the opening posts. Pte L Hayde `s service number is on the medal roll so the service record will be at the MoD or have you had it confirmed that it doesnt exist? If there`s a discrepancy in his surname the records for `soldier 6284451` will give his true identity and a next of kin plus any other transfers .

Thanks

Kyle

 

Tony: You seem to be the one following closely on what may be the right trail...
I now recall Margret posting

.... now "Penton" could be a typo for Fenton....?
So we have a Leslie, but with an initial "C" and surname of Mitchell....Is it therefore possible that Kathleen had a baby between 1912 or early 1914 that she couldn't afford to keep, and that either the father was a Mr Mitchell, or the boy was taken in by the Mitchell family.
Otherwise it's a bit complex to see how a Leslie C Mitchell had a mother Penton/Fenton...
We probably should be looking for a Leslie Mitchell or Fenton/Penton born 1912 or 1913 or '14 when we're looking for Hayde that can't easily be found - what the Hades is happening
It would also fit with a mid 20 year old cross country runner in the mid 1930's .....

 

Somebody else wants to find him too!

Military record request - a Freedom of Information request to British Army

Kyle

 

Good Day to those who have joined in the battle to help the Bermuda relatives of the Hayde family.
I have a tree on Ancestry.com that is a working tree where I have stored the developing history of the Hayde-Fitzsimmons family, whereas Bermuda David has his called Fitzsimmons that is newly created and to which I have shared material with. David's initial contact was to establish why his DNA linked to my cousin Terry of NZ and I was then back up contact for the name of Fenton.
David, growing up in Bermuda had little knowledge of his parents' family. David's maternal family through fighting granny Kathleen to her sister who was born in Jabalpur, India; this was a great success of trails and trials that lead to fighting grand aunty Mary Elizabeth Mayne's baptism showing her father's name was Michael Fenton. Lots of work to learn about the KOSB having an Irish man who was born in Dingle, Kerry Ireland and how he came to service in the 2/25th Foot, for example.
Family photos of Granny Kathleen living at 5 Whitby Road, Cheriton, Internet searching again. David recently hearing that his mother shared the secret with her eldest son that she had had a brother. It was an assumption that another photo of 'Leslie Hayde' in battledress was the brother and it is he who has been the difficult person to attain confirmation of his military history by way of his existence
.
David has been learning that contacting a forces-records website does require a service number, and he has also made phone calls to a Glasgow office for the MOD.
Onomatopoea, is certainly a noun that I have in need of at times.

I worked on the Michael Fenton possibility via driving the FreeBDM site to achieve 1913 Jan 1/4 for Michael Fenton, Elham registration. I have written to David to ask him to join ww2talk.com, having him participate and see the kindness shown towards helping the query about his 'rumoured' uncle Lesley. I have not asked David to purchase the certificate for 1913 Michael, son of mother Fenton, registered in Elham, as the time differences from Uk to Bermuda and NZ are to be faced. He wrote that he now has his father's birth certificate, Francis by name, who was born in Ireland and served as a Royal Marine. That under his belt proposing he purchase Michael's certificate is a sensible choice.
There are the thank you's too. I did the work on the Mayne family but had not seen the photo of Harry Augustus Mayne that you have supplied, thank you for sharing that. I did not have a clue that Thomas Hayde had left his wife, but David purchased access to the 1939 Register that showed this surprise, then you fellow ww2talk members/patrons were able to show missing links and surprising news about Thomas Hayde's marriage separation, and advertisements, and the fighting grannies fracas. Discovery of a soldier assaulting a citizen at Brockhead Common was a shock; the follow up as suggested above is what I would like David from Bermuda to read.

From Bermuda to New Zealand and the reverse we have worked very hard, with imagination and aiming for clarity and accuracy, teasing out memories. As a certain song says ' I've Been Everywhere Man'. Thank you for sustaining interest in our plight.
From Margret, for and on behalf of David of Bermuda

 

Good Day, Mr Jinks, Kyle, you have noticed that David Fitzsimmons of Bermuda has made the request.
From Margret

 

Thought it maybe. He will not get any records that way I`m afraid if he wants the service records he will have to enquire giving the Army number on the Palestine Roll and he will have to pay £30 .
Good Luck

Kyle

 

Hi everyone, sorry it took me so long to get here and thank you all so much for all the help ad advice that has been offered. we've found out some amazing things about my family thanks to all of you! When I called the Army record dept in Glasgow I was told that I need a death cert. to gain access to Leslie's records unless he was killed in action which he wasn't. Without a death cert. they will not release his record until 116 years after his birthdate. My eldest brother Ian told me is was very likely that Leslie was a 1/2 sibling and when I saw the ad posted on this thread from the personals in 1913 looking for someone to take a baby boy I think it much be Leslie she is offering. If we could find the birth cert for this child I hope things will become clear finally! Please if anyone has any more suggestions or information it will be much appreciated
All the best,

David Fitzsimmons