How to apply for a Nominal Roll entry for LESLIE HAYDE, or other information

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by Margret, Feb 3, 2018.

  1. Margret

    Margret WOII Fenton, of NZ, at Pirbright QEII Coronation

    I am seeking the Service Record for Leslie Hayde, supposedly from Folkestone, Kent. Mention in 'The Dragon' journals starting in 1912 unto 1937 mentions a L. Hayde in the Cross-Country Teams as a member of the 2nd Bn The Buffs. David, has finally heard the family legend to the existence of his maternal uncle who died in WW2; or died in a minesweeper. A Leslie Hayde served in the 1st Buffs in Palestine in 1939, a medical due to be issued to him showed that he was not traceable.
    I cannot find if Leslie Hayde, is the son of Kathleen Fenton who married Thomas Hayde, of Folkestone, Kent, when he was born, nor of his death. The attachment gives his number of 6284451.
    My apologies for committing any problem; I have read a few scores of past threads across forum for 'Newbies' to learn how to add to the forum.
    From Margret
     

    Attached Files:

  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

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  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949
    Name: L Hayde
    Service Date: 1936-1939
    Service Place: Palestine
    Campaign or Service: Palestine
    Regiment or Unit Name: Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment)
    Regimental Number: 6284451


    I have found exactly the same record - i.e from Ancestry, and it clearly states that the Medal was "returned and scrapped" which I can only assume it either was :

    1: Returned by him
    2: Returned, as the person was not at the address and no forwarding details were available
    3: The address did not exist


    The only Naval Hayde that died during WW2 was aboard HMS Hood
    Leading Seaman
    HAYDE, JOSEPH ANTHONY
    Service Number P/JX 144009
    Died 24/05/1941
    Aged 21
    H.M.S. Hood
    Royal Navy
    Son of James J. and Mary Hayde, of Ash Vale, Aldershot.

    The other 2 Haydes that died in WW2 1 was in RAF (buried in Lancashire), and the other a Signaller in the Army (buried in China)

    TD
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Although I can find no records for him, I think it is unlikely that Leslie is the son of Thomas Hayde/Kathleen Fenton.

    There is a marriage for Thomas and Kathleen Q3 1919, registered Elham, Kent but it would appear that they separated in 1927, just one child is mentioned.. Birth registers suggest this is a daughter, Doris E Hayde, registered Q3 1920, Elham, Kent.
     
  6. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Just found that
    Name: Thomas Hayde
    Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1919
    Registration district: Elham
    Inferred County: Kent
    Spouse: Kathleen Fenton
    Volume Number: 2a
    Page Number: 3463

    and as you say if the married in 1919 the copy of "The Dragon" seems to be pre WW1 I dont quite see how there is a match - or do I need to go back to specsavers (there are other opticians just as good and prhaps better available :lol:)

    TD

    Added

    Cant find a Leslie or L Hayde in 1911 census for England & Wales
     
  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Photo from "The Dragon" of Pte Hayde (Cross Country Team)
    img136.jpg
     
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  8. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    TD: I think "The Dragon" was produced BETWEEN 1912 and 1937 and as those in uniform have a goodly crop of medal ribbons, I'd guess post WW1.
    I think the family need to collate all the "stories" they know about him and place into a timeline.
    Certainly HMS Hood in no way resembled a minesweeper!
    If Margret is NOT in the UK, then obtaining his Service Record may be a bit more complex, hopefully there may be relatives still left in the UK that could do this?

    If he was in Palestine in 1939, then those units tended to stay around the Mediterranean so the naval connection seems to be a red herring (keeping it nautical) so why does Margret think the L Hayde in The Dragon is related to her quest?
    Most people don't start with a military cutting, it's family history links, so perhaps we should try and start at the beginning, to clarify who and what we are looking for? Not complaining, we all have to start learning things from scratch, but we need to sort what from chaff if we're to be able to help
     
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  9. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    As it seems impossible to find any BMD records for Leslie Hayde I agree, perhaps you could put down some family details and relationships with some idea of dates etc.

    You state that “A Leslie Hayde served in the 1st Buffs”, can I ask where you obtained this information as the only references I have found gives an initial.
     
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  10. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Ok I have discovered the link to David. From the attached you will see that Thomas Hayde and Kathleen Fenton (married Q3 1919) separated in 1927 and it would confirm that Doris was the only child. Unless Thomas had other children L Hayde would not be his 1st cousin although could well be related as 2nd or 3rd cousin etc. You will need much more work to establish this.

    Is there a possibility that Thomas was born 14 Feb 1895 in Ireland ? May have to widen search. Kathleen (or Kathrine) born 26 Mar 1886.
    Hayde 03.jpg Hayde 04.jpg
     
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  11. Margret

    Margret WOII Fenton, of NZ, at Pirbright QEII Coronation

    Thank you for the generosity of readers and contributors for the stupendous response. I went to sleep knowing that I had to write a Thank You to 'CL1' for their reply. Now fully awake, NZ-time, and a host of Thank You's is warranted to many others. I fully appreciate the responses that I have received. So much unexpected facts, that come from this thread, when I was aware of a newbie to bulletin board protocol has to be responsible for. I will leave to digest the messages contents. Thanks from, Margret.
     
  12. Margret

    Margret WOII Fenton, of NZ, at Pirbright QEII Coronation

     
  13. Margret

    Margret WOII Fenton, of NZ, at Pirbright QEII Coronation

    Good day, If this is the right place to reply to a particular reply, I was sent a photograph of a group of men with their army officers seated behind a series of trophies. A fuzzy search based on zoomed in badge became the Royal East Kent regiment to work on, and the name 'Hayde'. Internet searches gained The Dragons journal for 1912, and the similar image of the Cross Country Running team had the match to the one in David's family archives. This became the foundation of relating to 'the Army' to let David and his Bermudian relatives know that there was a link to The Buffs. Thank you.
     
  14. Margret

    Margret WOII Fenton, of NZ, at Pirbright QEII Coronation

    Good Day. I used the 6284451 as per the link for the corpsofmilitarypolice.org, and used Ancestry.co.uk to fuzzy search for a 'Leslie someone' who may have been in the military police in Palestine. Upon discovering another service number, fuzzy search for 'Lesley someone' brings up a Corporal in the East Kent Regiment; selection came to Leslie C. Mitchell, born in Salisbury in 1912, son of mother's name of 'Penton'. Fuzzy logic, but, why are there other numbers for an enlisted person it the 6284451 belongs to a 'block of numbers'? Thank you, to T.D., Tony56 , Kevin Battle and CL !.
     
  15. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Margaret

    If you look at the first post in this thread a member has sorted the numbers into Regimental blocks

    Army Number Block Allocations

    For example -
    The Buffs (East Kent Regiment) 6278001 - 6334000

    My fathers Regiment -
    Royal Warwickshire Regiment 5094001 - 5172000

    Your man may have been transferred or requested transfer into the Military Police but when he enlisted into the military it was via 'The Buffs'

    TD
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  16. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    To expand TD's post a little more.
    Up until WW1 the British Army had been fairly small and organised more on County lines.
    Each Regiment had its own numbering system for its recruits, and being small, even if there were 2, 4 or more "John Smith"'s they would know which was which.
    During WW1 the expansion was far more rapid than the Army numbers could accommodate easily, leading to the possibility that the 1st Battn XYZshires having the same numbering system as the 2nd or even 3rd or 4th Battns, giving the possibility that Private John Smith 1234 1st Bttn XYZshires might be confused with Private 1234 4th Bttn XYZshires. Additionally, officers did not have numbers, so 2nd Lt J Smith could be not only in 1st, but 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc of the same Regiment.
    To overcome this, after the War the Army allocated a specific individual number to every man, including Officers.
    That way there was a way of following specific men through their Army career.
    So, for the East Buffs, men with a similar Service Number were
    HATTON, THOMAS HENRY. Private. Service Number 6284468. Died 17/06/1940. Aged 28
    2nd Bn. The Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment)
    Husband of Mary Hatton, of Neston, Cheshire.
    Commemorated at DUNKIRK MEMORIAL

    MCDONALD, DONALD WILLIAM. Private. Service Number 6284407. Died 24/10/1942. Aged 28
    1st Bn. The Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment)
    Buried at EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY

    TEBBLE, FRANK STEPHEN. Service Number 6284494. Died Between 28/05/1940 and 23/06/1940. Aged 26
    4th Bn. The Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment)
    Buried at LA PLAINE-SUR-MER COMMUNAL CEMETERY

    so you can see the alphabetical influence on the numbering system, Hatton and Hayde are close enough together.

    With regard to the cross country trophy, I can see the problem as on the internet, "The Dragon" seems to be many pages of the same issue, dated 1912.
    However, in 1912 Baronet the Hon P G Scarlett was only a Captain, and the reference is to him being involved in the Boxing Competition as a judge.
    The cross country photo clearly refers to him as Lt Col, a temporary rank he attained at the end of WW1.
    So, although they appear to be the same issue, i believe these are pages put together as a composite of the magazine.

    Obviously I could be wrong, but I can't otherwise explain how on one page he is Captain and on another he is Lt Col (and with WW1 medal ribbons) in 1912.....

    None of which helps us solve your question!
     
  17. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Margret I don't think that there is any suggestion that 6284451 L Hayde was in the Military Police. It just happens that the army number search tool is on their website, it covers all regiments. The Award Roll that you posted clearly states The Buffs (Royal East Kent Regiment).

    As per my post #9 above could you explain how he is known to be Leslie as it seems that he is only referred to by the initial L.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  18. Margret

    Margret WOII Fenton, of NZ, at Pirbright QEII Coronation

    Good Day, Tony56. In the family archives, ie photos in a box or album was the '1912 Running Team' of The Buffs with the writing on the reverse of the print reading 'On the back it says Leslie Hayde center back line running team'. Through out the many times of reading about a team member be Pte Hayde, then at least once, with the letter L., that gave us confidence that L = Leslie. Then an entry from Ancestry for the Hayde in Palestine showed L. Hayde, Pte, but it was the reverse side of the East Kent Regiment running team photo that cousin David's family had that matched the photo in the assembled online 'The Dragon' journal for 1912 East Kent Cross Country team, and the home archive had simply written 'On the back it says Leslie Hayde center back line running team'. That family notation written decades ago identified the same runner in the published photo in 'The Dragon' journal. cousin David agrees that the future position and recognitions that Scarlett received did not match the 'Back to the Future', but it was my insistence that the cover of the publication said '1912' there it was; I never assumed there would be a cobbled together book of another time frame.
    From Margret
     
  19. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    There`s lots of newspaper entries from the mid 1930s regarding a `Pte L Hayde` of the Buffs and then there`s this from 1936.

    Kyle
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Margret

    Margret WOII Fenton, of NZ, at Pirbright QEII Coronation

    Good Day, Mr Jinks. Thank you for your reply Kyle, and the accompanying pdf file. To obtain the newspaper, do you belong to subscription service? From Margret.
     

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