How many tanks?

Discussion in '1940' started by MarkN, May 29, 2016.

  1. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    If you've now got the Evans' report...GREAT!

    Now you can see for yourself just how incomprensible his numbers are, Nothing adds up. Nothing agrees with anything else.

    DC(S)40 Meetings in CAB70/1. Papers associated with those meetings in CAB70/2.

    Thanks for the offer, but I don't need the full document. If a favour is being offered, can I bank it. :D
     
  2. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Check your PM's, Mark!
     
  3. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    Evans also had a narrative of the 1st Armoured Division in France published in Army Quarterly. It came in 4 parts which l've so far only managed to acquire 1 part. The last two times I've been to the IWM and asked, they've been unable to produce the relevant files as they were in deep and long term storage and not available until some unknown date in the future.

    I tried the National Army Museum. Even got the publications in my hands. However, some idiot had decided to rip out the relevant pages and keep them for himself. The same for Beauman's narrative too.

    :wacko:
     
  4. BFBSM

    BFBSM Very Senior Member

    The State Library of Victoria appear to have a complete set, if you let me know which issues to look for, I will try and obtain copies of the articles. I intend, if all goes well, to visit one day next week.

    Mark
     
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  5. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    Ooooooh!!!!

    I do not have my research notes to hand so have done a bit of a google to come up with what I think is the answer:

    Evans: 1st Armoured Division in France 1940
    Part 1: Army Quarterly, Vol.44 No.2, August 1942
    Part 2: Army Quarterly, Vol.45 No.1, November 1942
    Part 3: Army Quarterly, Vol.45 No.2, February 1943
    Part 4: Army Quarterly, Vol.46 No.1, May 1943

    Beauman: France May-June 1940
    Part 1: Army Quarterly, Vol.46 No.2, August 1943
    Part 2: Army Quarterly, Vol.47 No.1, October 1943
    Part 3: Army Quarterly, Vol.47 No.2, January 1944

    I found Evans Part 3 on the internet. Not good quality but more than readable. Beauman Part 3 was the only surviving element at the National Army Museum so I managed to grab some picces of that. When I get the chance to ferret through my hard drives, I'll post them up here if anybody is interested.

    If you don't get lucky Mark, I have a trip to the UK later in the year and plan to try again at the IWM. I have also been lead to believe that there are copies in the RUSI library which I will try if IWM is still unavailable.
     
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  6. BFBSM

    BFBSM Very Senior Member

    I will keep you updated, and if copies are available I will post the images to the forum.

    Mark
     
  7. BFBSM

    BFBSM Very Senior Member

    I have ordered them, and shall be visiting the library next Wednesday.

    Mark
     
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  8. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    This photo posted upthread by Keith (morrisc8) has been attributed as being taken at Nantes:

    BEF captured tanks 1940.jpg

    Judging by the crane in the background, this does indeed appear to be Nantes. You can see the crane and the accompanying rail tracks in the illustration below:

    Gare de Nantes.jpg

    So if the photograph was indeed taken by the Germans, then the tanks that reached Nantes did not return to the UK.
     
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  9. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    This is what is on the back of the photo, Spot on chaps.
    Keith
    tank back docks 1940.jpg
     
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  10. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    Indeed.

    But was there only 1 trainload of tanks sent to Nantes?
     
  11. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    There's an interesting extract from the Queen's Bays war diary for June 15th here:

    QB's.jpg

    These are the only 1st Armoured Division tanks that are recorded as reaching Cherbourg from Le Mans. These may be the tanks that are in the photos below that Keith uploaded earlier:

    T 9139 tanks   jpg.jpg
    T 9153 tank mr.jpg

    Is anybody able to confirm whether the tanks shown in this series of pictures - T9139, T9143, T9153 - were indeed allocated to the Queen's Bays?

    Also, I can't find any views of Cherbourg that show the tower in the background, which I think might be a lighthouse. So although these photos are credited as being at Cherbourg, they might actually have been taken somewhere else, possibly in Germany.
     
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  12. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    Regarding the narratives by Evans and Beauman.

    Here is Evans part.III:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] . [​IMG] . [​IMG] . [​IMG] . [​IMG] . [​IMG]

    Here is Beauman part.II (I'd forgotten I had this one):
    [​IMG] . [​IMG] . [​IMG] . [​IMG] . [​IMG] . [​IMG]

    I know I have Beauman part.III too as that's the one I found and copied at the National Army Museum. Unfortunately, all I can find is the cover at the moment!!!!

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    Contradicts between and with war diaries can be most annoying.

    Entry in the HQ 2 Armoured Brigade war diary:
    [​IMG]

    It occured to me that, perhaps, the train didn't arrive in CHERBOURG because it went to NANTES instead - hence Keith's picture of A13 Mk.II sitting on rail trucks at NANTES - one of which is identified as a Queen's Bays tank!

    Consider the following:
    1) If 7 Bays tanks were sitting at CHERBOURG from the 15th, why didn't they get backloaded? The 3rd Armd Brigade tanks went straight onto ships 3 days later.
    2) Why did it take Patchett & Co 2 days to get to England when everybody else sailing from CHERBOURG were home the same day?

    Also note, there were (at least) three trains leaving LE MANS area at the same time: one for 2nd Armoured Brigade, one for 3rd Armoured Brigade and one for Divisional Workshops.

    Notice how the 2nd Armoured Brigade states 14 off A.13 and 26 off Light Tanks. 40 in total. The Bays' war diary mentions only 7 were theirs. The war diaries of both 9L and 10H do not indicate they had any more than the Bays had to their name, nor the Brigade HQ troop. I can only presume it includes a good few under the charge of 2nd Armoured Brigade LRS.

    And finally, I found this (again):
    [​IMG]
    This number tallies with the Evans' report saying 14 Cruiser and 11 Light Tanks returned. Whether is is a confirmation of what came back with Crocker, or simply the same information from the same source, is impossible to say.
     
  14. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    The architechture has the look of a German barracks.
     
  15. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    I Can`t read German but i think the photos taken in Germany 1941. info on back of photos.
    Keith
    tank photo back of mr roberts.jpg
     
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  16. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    More info on the back of this photo English tanks from france to Germany ?
    Original photos from my collection.
    Keith
    tank train c photo.jpg tank train c 2.jpg tanks on train docks back of photo.jpg
     
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  17. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    Had this info on tank Master Robert. info on bottom of page is of a different tank on the same page
    tank info mr roberts.JPG
     
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  18. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Shurely Master Robert was in "B" Squadron if it had a square squadron sign?

    I thought it was triangle = A, square = B, circle = C
     
  19. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Behold the Wünsdorf barracks water tower:

    TF_08_Wuensdorf_Waldstadt.jpg
     
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  20. BFBSM

    BFBSM Very Senior Member

    Evans Part I: Army Quarterly, Vol.45 No.1, November 1942

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    Evans Part 2: Army Quarterly, Vol.45 No.2, February 1943

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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