How many Hotchkiss 25mm A/T guns in the British Army?

I know that in 1939 the Army started taking on charge French 25mm antitank guns...poor as they were!...due to a shortage of 2-pdrs...

I know that 98 of these were "left" in France at the end of May 1940...and 509 2-pdrs...

But how many did the Army take in charge in the first place??? Most tertiary sources say that "most if not all" were left in France - but "98" seems a quite low figure...?

 

Hi there, suppose you've seen this:

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?36429-BEF-25mm-Hotchkiss-Gun

Cheers,

Lex

 

Thanks for that! Didn't show up when I was googling around

This is VERY interesting...

THOSE figures are a lot more impressive! I was wondering...because not only had I come across quite a few mentions of them in Home Guard service later in the war....I knew that some went to NORWAY in April 1940!

 

Would you like a copy of that NA file, Phylo ?

 

having looked at Rich's file now....it would appear that british "orders" were fulfilled in TWO tranches

The first tranche of 220 guns, of the 1934 pattern, was divided...and 196 sent to france to the BEF (operational and reserve) and 24 were retained in the UK;

(There was a total of 4,000 live rounds and 5,000 reduced charge practice rounds retained in the UK, the rest was sent to france...)

The SECOND tranche was scheduled to arrive in three parts - unfortunately there's no confirmation these DID arrive; they were to be the later 1937 pattern.

Now - according to oen of David Boyd's excellent articles - 98 were left in France...which is exactly HALF of the first tranche (in numbers terms)

So - if we assume the rest were brought back (as they weren't left???) That's AT LEAST 98 + 24 in the UK = 122 25mm A/T guns

As we do have that "left in France" figure and it's already removed from the equation - we can assume that the numbers of guns in the second tranche ALSO ended up in the UK if any were delivered... which is 122+X!

 

I don't know the article referred to but it seems to me unlikely that they would have specifically returned 25mm guns to the UK whilst abandoning more valuable equipment. If the figure is correct, could it then be that they had been replaced for front line srevice by the 2pdr and that the 25mms were diverted to the UK for training purposes prior to May ?

I don't really see anything in the WO files to suggest that though.

Did the author have access to this file ? I only found it by chance when looking for evidence of motorcycle sales to France.

 

Depends; they were evacuating odds-n-sods and materiel for anything up to a week before the "formal" start of DYNAMO...

Here's the article I was referring to...

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=125:british-equipment-losses-at-dunkirk-and-the-situation-post-dunkirk&catid=50ther-articles&Itemid=61

...note the sole reference to the Hotchkiss, the "98" figure for 25mm A/T in the very first table.

 

Farndale's The Years of Defeat 1939-41 has a Table of Equipments Lost in France in June 1940 that shows a total of 48 25mm guns lost under A/Tk Regts. In addition, 432 2-prs were also lost across a total of ten A/Tk Regts, giving a total total loss of 480 guns. The implication is that there was a single A/Tk Regt wholly equipped with them* and none were brought back. At first glance, the table is simply writing-off entire regiments, yet there is a further figure of 518 'guns destroyed in action or accidentally', so I'm not quite sure where they would have come from.

Getting back to the point: the table also lists the loss of 50 25mm guns that were held in reserve stock. That tallies with the 98.

However, the table doesn't include 25mm guns lost with the Inf Bde A/Tk Coys which is where the balance would be. The missing 98 would make up nearly all of the Bde A/Tk Coys formed in 1,2, 3 & 4 Divs.

* 14 A/Tk Regt in 4 Div according to the HMVF thread.

 

I noticed tonight that units in the Beauman Div took some 20 guns back to the UK from Cherbourg in June.

 

Thought this may be of interest - partly as it shows this book was issued to the Canadian 1st Div in April 1940 and I'd imagine it indicates they had some of these on issue, not sure if the Canadians had their own contracts.

Another manual

Alistair

 

I've a copy of the latter manual on the www.weapons.org.uk website for those interested.

Regards

Richard

 

Thanks for that; 20 may not sound many but it is, after all, a not inconsiderable perentage of the possible whole!

Is anyone aware of any other "bring backs"?

 

Beaumann's report in the Army Quarterly

However, there is an earlier mention of three scratch batteries of 2 prs and one of 18 prs at Forges-les-Eaux. A/Tk btys had 12 guns at this time, so it's probable that these are the 36 he mentions at Cherbourg - he is referring to 2 pr, not 25mm guns.

 

This is a most interesting and informative thread. I was going to cover the 25mm on my unusual British weapons thread, and this helps a lot.

The 25mm had its uses, at least against early-war armor plate. Andreas has a 1942 XIII Corps report on foreign guns on his Crusader Project page, and XIII Corps rated the 25mm as a fairly effective gun. As that shows, British use of the 25 did not stop with the fall of France. Some were captured from the Vichy French in Syria, and these were later used by both the Free French and some 8th Army units as well.

As for the 25mm guns in the UK...large numbers of French and Free Polish troops were evacuated from France and Norway in the to Britain in the summer of 1940, bringing their arms with them. While the French at least were mostly repatriated, they left some of their weapons behind. According to Tony Edwards large quantiites of French small arms were issued to the Home Guard. Now, I have no details on this, but I have seen pictures of Free Poles training in Scotland with chenillete UE carriers, so if chenilletes could come back to Britain in French or Polish hands I don't see why some of the 25mm's in the UK could not have had a similar provenance.

 

Rich, it didn't strike me until I saw the Beauman Division comment that talking about "the BEF" and "France" might be somewhat misleading - as in, we MIGHT have to discuss the BEF "1" and BEF II separately? More chance of timely bringbacks from SOUTH of the Seine???

It also makes sense to restrict the number of 25mms in use in the Uk in the summer of 1940 given the amount of ammunition available 4,000 "live" rounds and 5,000 low-charge practice rounds! So it's not impossible that more were brought back than were subsequently reused in Allied service???

Regarding the 8th Army using Hotchkiss 25mms...can anyone tell me was this before or after EXPORTER???

 

Here is the XIII Corps report I referred to earlier. Note the date:
http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/captured-guns-in-use-by-13-corps-17-february-1942/

 

Hi I have found your comments on the French 25mm antitank gun very interesting as I have recently been researching this guns use in British hands in WWII. However, I am more interested in its use in the western desert in 1940 rather than with the BEF. I have found a reference to 33 of them being sent to British forces in the middle east in 1936 (p.50, The British Defence of Egypt 1935-40: Steve Morewood). So I was wondering if anyone knows what happened to them did they stay or did they go? Were they still in use in 1940? Although of little use against German tanks they would have been very useful against Italian tanks.

 

Morewood's information is interesting, if accurate. That is the first hint I have seen of the 25mm Hotchkiss in British service before 1939. I don't know the book, though. What is Morewood's source, and what is the context? I ask because I am wondering if the weapon was ordered for the British Army or for the Egyptian Army. The Egyptian forces were largely equipped with British materiel, but they did enjoy a little freedom and sometimes had odd items that weren't standard British equipment. One such was the 37mm Bofors anti-tank gun, numbers of which were transeferred to British service when the war with Italy broke out.

 

Hi that is the problem he gives no source. However, the reason for the guns being sent put forward by Morewood does makes sense. They were sent to the Middle East at the time of the Abyssinian Crisis, along with a load of other stuff, because there were no 2pdrs available, in fact there probably were none even made at that time. Nonetheless assuming the 25mm were sent what happened to them? Also while I am on does anyone know what the ration strength of Middle East command was in June 1940 army, air and navy?

 

I have no knowledge of 25mm usage outside of France. The document that I looked at dated from 1940 and gave the impression that first deliveries dated from 1939...no mention of the British already having had guns or ammunition for use elsewhere.

Desertnorm - I've sent you a 'pm' (presonal message) via the forum.

This is a view of the 25mm being manhandled that I hadn't seen before.