How America planned for an attack on BRITAIN in 1930

Discussion in 'Prewar' started by David Layne, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. David Layne

    David Layne Well-Known Member

  2. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    We had something about pre-prepared military planning a long while back, sure we did - though obviously I can't find the thread now. (Maybe something about Soviet speculative plans? May even have been on WW2F?)

    I'd be kind of disappointed if every sensible military staff didn't have a drawer full of potential scenarios, and how to deal with 'em. No matter how far fetched or peculiar those scenarios might be. Anything even slightly possible ought to be considered shouldn't it?
    It's interesting, but doesn't seem all that surprising to me.
     
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  4. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    I wonder when we will dust off Britain's Naval plans for dealing with the USof A from 1860 - 1940??

    All countries make contingency plans - remember Britain still has historic claims to most of France, Northern Germany, the Sandwich Islands not to forget the Eastern seaboard of the USA - hmmmmm Memo to Hague - Invasion is an option (remember the Mouse that Roared we can remake as Toothless Lion Strikes Back)

    Alternative Scenario - Cede Scotland to Canada and take Greece into the Commonwealth (remember Maggie took in Mozambique)
     
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  5. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    In fact if the US government had not planed for war with Britain you could argue they would be negligent.
     
  6. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    In 1930 did America have strategic bombers or carrier born bombers?? I think not
     
  7. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    von Poop likes this.
  8. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    I wonder when we will dust off Britain's Naval plans for dealing with the USof A from 1860 - 1940??

    The great HMS warrior vs USS Monitor debt and should we have interveend in the War beteen the US StatesB)
     
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  10. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    Defence Scheme No 1 was mention in the C5 program. Apparently Britain was going to let the US have Canada and interdict there shipping to make them come to terms.
     
  11. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    US Civil war - days when the UK supplied arms to the US!


    Following the Crimean War in the 1850s Armstrong became increasingly involved with the manufacture of armaments and his eighteen pound breach loading gun was one of many Armstrong weapons recognized as the best in the world. Such devices, often tested on the moors of Allendale, were ordered by armies and navies all over the the world from Russia and Japan to the United States. In fact Armstrong supplied both armies in the American Civil War.
     
  12. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    That's a cracker, Tom.
    Googling about reveals many other fun scenarios:
    Google_Military_contingency_plans


    Thanks Adam,

    When I was in the Police I oversaw all our Forces Emergency Contingency files transposed from Hard copy to Computer in our then new control centre.

    I remember the Air sea Rescue plan involved me and another officer travelling to RAF Luechars and RAF Inverkeithing for approval and signing off.

    Visiting the WW2 Coastal Command bunker at RAF Inverkeithing was a great experience:)

    Regards
    Tom
     
  13. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    US Civil war - days when the UK supplied arms to the US!


    Following the Crimean War in the 1850s Armstrong became increasingly involved with the manufacture of armaments and his eighteen pound breach loading gun was one of many Armstrong weapons recognized as the best in the world. Such devices, often tested on the moors of Allendale, were ordered by armies and navies all over the the world from Russia and Japan to the United States. In fact Armstrong supplied both armies in the American Civil War.

    And all Enfields used.
     
  14. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Don't forget, the USA always had the benefit of John Wayne in reserve :)

    Ron
     
  15. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    In 1930 did America have strategic bombers or carrier born bombers?? I think not

    You forget the elegant YB-9....all seven of them.:lol:


    I wonder if the document was also a wish list or an attempt to push along the development of the strategic bomber, at least as they saw it at the time. The B-10 went into production by 1932.
     
  16. idler

    idler GeneralList

    IIRC the USMC developed the Japanese threat to justify it's existence and funding, perhaps Plan Red was the Army's bid for a bigger share of the pie?
     
  17. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    More than enough colours in the spectrum, thats what staffs do, plan for every eventuality. linkie

    The United States had a series of plans in place to deal with an array of potential adversaries. The primary war planning agencies of the period 1890-1939, which were the war colleges of the US Army and US Navy. In 1903 the Joint Army and Navy Board was established to attempt to make the two services work better together. Although initially the "Joint Board" had no independent war-planning authority, it did act as the final review board for war plans submitted to it by army and naval authorities. After the First World War, the Joint Board gained its own planning staff and was able to initiate plans itself. Economic constraints on the military in the inter-war period led the leaders of both services to try to coordinate their plans to a much greater extent than before the First World War. After World War I, the Joint Army and Navy Board (the predecessor of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) reviewed all the prewar plans to ensure they were consistent with the current state of affairs in the world.


    • War Plan Black was a plan for war with Germany. The best-known version of Black was conceived as a contingency plan during World War I in case France fell and the Germans attempted to seize French possessions in the Caribbean, or launch an attack on the eastern seaboard.
    • War Plan Gray dealt with invading a Caribbean republic.
    • War Plan Brown dealt with an uprising in the Philippines.
    • War Plan Tan was for intervention in Cuba.
    • War Plan Red Plan for Great Britain (with a sub variant Crimson Plan for Canada)
    • ...
     
  19. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    THE USN's ideas on bombing came from the long series of interwar (and pre-WWI) Fleet Exercises, including the famous one that influenced the U.S.'s thinking on defending the Panama Canal in WWII...

    That particular Fleet Exercise, in Pacific waters off the Western Approaches to the Canal, culminated in a biplane bomber atack that successfully hit the Gatun Dan sluice gates with dummy bombs...

    In 1920! Apparently the attack invovled a biplane cruising ALONG the sluice gates at virtually stalling speeds, and dropping a 2-lb flour bomb on the ten foot wide walkway a few feet below its wheels!

    I hate to think what other Mickey Mouse exercise similarly reliably informed the U.S. Chiefs of Staff that they could influence the outcome of a war by strategic bombing with their 1930s technology...
     
  20. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Interestingly...this was NOT just a paper exercise...

    The Americans do seem to have exercised this one for real!

    A 1935 US Plan for Invasion of Canada

    Submitted by F.W. Rudmin
    Queen's University
    Kingston, Ontario Canada

    The following is a full-text reproduction of the 1935
    plan for a US invasion of Canada prepared at the US Army
    War College, G-2 intelligence division, and submitted on
    December 18, 1935. This is the most recent declassified
    invasion plan available from the US archival sources.
    Centered pagination is that of the original document. The
    spelling and punctuation of the original document are
    reproduced as in the original document, even when in error
    by present-day norms.

    This document was first identified by Richard Preston
    in his 1977 book, "The Defence of the Undefended Border:
    Planning for War in North America 1867-1939" (Montreal:
    McGill-Queen's University Press.) Preston's reference
    citation (p. 277) identified this to be archived at the US
    Military History Collection, Carlisle Barracks, Pa., coded
    AWC 2-1936-8, G2, no. 19A. It was located by the US
    National Archives and supplied on microfilm.

    The military planning context of this document is War
    Plan Red, which was approved in May 1930 by the Secretary
    of War and the Secretary of Navy. War Plan Red and
    supporting documents are available from the US National
    Archives on microfilm, in the Records of the Joint Board,
    1903-1947, Roll 10, J.B. 325, Serial 435 through Serial
    641. In War Plan Red, the US Army's theatre of operations
    is defined to be: "All CRIMSON territory" (p.80), and the
    US Army's mission, in bold type: ULTIMATELY, TO GAIN
    COMPLETE CONTROL OF CRIMSON (p. 84). CRIMSON is the
    colour code for Canada. In 1934, War Plan Red was amended
    to authorize the immediate first use of poison gas against
    Canadians and to use strategic bombing to destroy Halifax
    if it could not be captured.

    In February 1935, the War Department arranged a
    Congressional appropriation of $57 million dollars to
    build three border air bases for the purposes of
    pre-emptive surprise attacks on Canadian air fields. The
    base in the Great Lakes region was to be camouflaged as a
    civilian airport and was to "be capable of dominating the
    industrial heart of Canada, the Ontario Peninsula" from p.
    61 of the February 11-13, 1935, hearings of the Committee
    on Military Affairs, House of Representatives, on Air
    Defense Bases (H.R. 6621 and H.R. 4130). This testimony
    was to have been secret but was published by mistake. See
    the New York Times, May 1, 1935, p. 1.

    In August 1935, the US held its largest peacetime military manoeuvres in history, with 36,000 troops
    converging at the Canadian border south of Ottawa, and another 15,000 held in reserve in Pennsylvania. The war game scenario was a US motorized invasion of Canada, with the defending forces initially repulsing the invading Blue forces, but eventually to lose "outnumbered and outgunned" when Blue reinforcements arrive. This according to the Army's pamphlet "Souvenir of of the First Army Maneuvers: The Greatest Peace Time Event in US History" (p.2).
     

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