"Honey tank" - Turret-less or otherwise.

Thought it would be of interest!

Paul,
Absolutely. I find the bit about the .30 and .50 calibre not being for AA and the Bren being installed for AA purposes, a little strange.

The elevation may have been the problem of the larger .50 gun.

Very interesting reports.

Regards
Tom

 

Tom

As I've mentioned on many occasions, on my chariot we had two Brownings.

The .30 was mounted fore and I had a chance to use it just once, the .50 was mounted aft, on a swivel mount and I was told that it was reserved for anti-aircraft.

Don't remember reading about our 2 inch mortar, the barrel of which was welded to the chassis on the right hand side looking forward.

On the last night of hostilities in Italy we fired off all our ammo, including the mortar shells !

Ron

 

Ron,

It sounds like you had a little fun with your pyrotechnics display

Regards
Tom

 

I thought that while I was still around I would try and settle this subject definitively .

I recently visited the Tank Museum at Latrun in Israel and the "big man" (in every sense) Brigadier General (Retired) Zvi Kan-Tor, was kind enough to give my wife and I a conducted tour of the exhibits.

He soon found me the Stuart M3A1 but inevitably it was still with it's turret.

Through the wonders of image editing I have removed the turret so that you can see what it was like when I first made my Honey's aquaintance.

I also attach a photo of a Honey in action and the Bren Gun carrier that was to replace our Honey once the war was over.

Ron

ps
Just realised that my new image doesn't show the .30mm Browning mounted at the front left, as you see it, perhaps one of our clever members can do some tweaking for me ?

pps
This, from my memory of when I first joined the 4th QOH:

l. I had been assigned as wireless operator to the squadron sergeant major, one Sgt. Major "Busty" Thomas, as Welsh as it was possible to be.

2. His tank wasn’t the nice, solid-looking Sherman on which I had been trained for the past three months, but was instead a Stuart tank from the 8th Army desert days. To compound the felony its turret had been removed and the only protection "up top" was a canvas hood that was designed to keep the rain off.

3. The SSM's job on the battlefield was to act as nursemaid to the squadron, and this involved anything and everything that no-one else had been detailed for, including picking up stragglers, prisoners, the wounded, and in fact every job that no one else would want to do.

 

This one was from 2nd Lothians & Border Horse

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=50863&stc=1&d=1305618256

 

General Montgomery with Lt-Col A C Clive of the Grenadier Guards in a turretless Stuart command tank, 8 March 1943.

And nice model of turetless Stuart

Small Scale AFV :: View topic - Trash Can Rescue #2

 

Hi Sol

Thanks for the additional photos.

What I find of interest is that these emphasise that there was a fair amount of room left in the hull of the tank after the turret was removed.

I can remember that there was ample room for Busty & myself (he didn't get his nickname for nothing!) and the cupola ring as shown in some models was simply not there. In the removal of the turret the surrounds had also beeen removed so that the hull opening was now square. I hope that makes sense ?

Ron

 

Couple more photos of turretless Stuart

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=50900&stc=1&d=1305654710

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=50901&stc=1&d=1305654710

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=50902&stc=1&d=1305654710

 

May I just bring this query up again, as I feel sure someone on this thread will know.

Would a reconnaissance Honey with the Irish Guards in north Germany in April 1945 have had a turret? In the description of an action involving one, mention is made of the "hull Browning" and of the crew having pistols, so might this have been a turretless tank?

Belville

 

Belville

Would a reconnaissance Honey with the Irish Guards in north Germany in April 1945 have had a turret? In the description of an action involving one, mention is made of the "hull Browning" and of the crew having pistols, so might this have been a turretless tank?


Honey's came with their original turret or turretless.

If it still had it's turret the Hull Browning would have been co-axially mounted, i.e. the Browning would have been connected so as to move automatically with the canon and would have been fired by the same gunner.

When the turret was removed the Browning would have been separately mounted on the turret ring and fired by the wireless operator.

Irregardless of turret/turretless all tank crews were armed with revolvers, mine was a Smith & Wesson.

Ron

 

British Armoured Regiment recce troop during 1945 had 11 light tanks and if they were same as New Zealand ones in Italy than three of them are ordinary Stuarts M5 with turret while other eight were turretless Stuarts. So in your case that could be any of these two types.

Wasn't the hull Browning the one operated with co-driver?

 

Sol
Wasn't the hull Browning the one operated with co-driver?


My Honey had a crew of only 3 men

The driver, Hewie, the commander, "Busty" and the wireless operator/gunner that was me.

With a crew of 4 it would have been as you have posed it.

Driver, Co-Driver, Commander, Wireless Op.

Ron

 

Hi Ron, I didn't express myself correctly. I completely forgot that turretless Stuart had one crew member less. hull machine gun was the 0.30 Browning on the right of driver

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=50934&stc=1&d=1305708831

Regards
Enes

 

Enes

You probably know more about the beast than I do

So tell me, when the Stuart still had it's turret, would the .30 have been completely co-axial as in the Sherman ?

I remember, purely from my Sherman training days at Rieti, that the Loader /Op had no control over the weapon other than to keep it loaded with fresh ammo.

In action with the Honey, my main job was to keep the 19 set going so that my tank commander knew what he was supposed to be doing and so that he could pass back info to the Squadron Leader.

My role as machine gunner was very much subsiduary to that and I can only remember being called upon to act as gunner once when we were doing our "mopping up" role.

Ron

 

I must admit that all my knowledge about this beautiful vehicle is based on couple of books and what is available on the net and it's not match to yours Ron. I never even saw real thing.

Seems (I couldn't find definite answer only indications) that it was completely coaxial as photos shows.

Regards
Enes

 

Hi guys

Lots of interesting facts, reminiscences and photos on this thread, but there seems to be some confusion in recognising the various versions.

All the Honeys/Stuarts had vertical sides except the M3A3 which had sloping sides continuous along the length of the tank. Up to then (M2A4, M3, M3A1) the sides were vertical but did not extend to the back, beside the engine, though a stowage box beside the engine made it look a bit like that, but the air cleaners made an obvious break in the side. The M5s all had vertical sides but can be recognised by the step up behind the turret, necessitated by the new larger engines.

I have to confess some difficulty in differentiating the earlier versions as they only external difference is slightly different turrets!

Chris

 

A early stuart either loading or vice versa on to a Diamond T and Rogers trailer

 

It would appear from these two photos the British were still using cut down stuarts as gun tractors in the middle east around 1956 when the Suez crisis was on. I was aware they used them to tow the 17pdr AT gun but one here is towing a 6pdr but this could be a earlier photo, note the dust shield extensions on the front
cheers
Les

 

Les

Many thanks for the pics.

I was particularly pleased to see that there were at least 5 men in the hull of the first tank which confirms my memory of the size of the hull and I was also interested to see that they carried spare track which served the dual purpose of carrying spares and extra protection against incoming fire .

Ron