Homosexuality within Armed Forces, WW2

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by Callisto, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I posted some details on here about British POW soldiers having a trial for homosexual relations with the PoW Camp sometime ago.
     
  2. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    There was a woman's side to this, too, though numbers and frequency are impossible to estimate. Female military corps were then a relatively new idea, especially in the US, and there was a lot of worry that they would be havens for lesbians (or, alternatively, pools of prostitutes for the officers). Mrs. Oveta Culp Hobby, head of the WAC, did her best to keep lesbians out but a few did serve. A scandal blew up at Fort Oglethorpe, a WAC training center, when some of these women were caught. The resulting furor damaged WAC recruiting for some time.

    I don't know much about European parallels beyond a few anecdotes. Tereska Torres, a member of the Free French FFAT, wrote a pioneering novel about lesbianism in that force (Women's Barracks), and a couple of lesbian ATS girls figure in Olivia Manning's Levant Trilogy.

    Having done a little research on the US scene, my guess is that the temporary separation of many members of both sexes from daily contact with one another for several years stimulated same-sex affiliation at least in the short run. You do get a sense of this looking at postwar US literature, including the Beats (who started in the war years, of course).
     
  3. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    They certainly joked and sang songs about it. It took me years to find out why Dad would never recite all of the words to 'Abdul the Bulbul Emir' :)
     
  4. Peccavi

    Peccavi Senior Member

    "he was a puff, but a good soldier and one of us so we made sure he wasn't picked on".

    Happened in one of my father's platoons, WW2. The soldier was just feminate, could not help it, and was seriously picked on - by an NCO. The lads got around as a bunch and made sure the tormentor realised that one dark night he might run into trouble - no problem thereafter.
     
  5. chick42-46

    chick42-46 Senior Member

    Have now checked the 4th Division CRASC war diary (WO 167/235).

    Entry for 27 April 1940 reads:

    "Discipline: A case of sodomy was investigated in 4 Div Sup Coln. The investigation is in the hands of F.S.P. Reported facts to Div and instructed 4 Div Sup Coln to take a summary."

    Unfortunately, the War Diary runs out at the end of April, so there are no further entries. The BEF had other things to worry about in May 1940!

    The War Diary for 4 Division Supply Column, RASC, is mostly missing for April and I can find no mention in the previous months of this incident. But clearly, if so minded, the army could and did take action in such cases.
     
  6. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    A few passing mentions in obituaries to the proclivities of individuals who had seen war service,

    Yesterday's SMH newspaper here in Australia had an obit for a WW2 officer who went on to work at the BBC. He passed away in December but news travels slowly down-under.

    The obit alludes to his living arrangements without comment.
     
  7. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    As Chick 42-46 points out, this whole subject is most likely to surface officially in the disciplinary records. I looked at a lot of court martial stuff for my book and I only recall two cases, one in 50th Div (actually 8th Armd Bde I think) and one in the 9th Australian Div.


    For those with an interest -

    A secret history of sexuality on the front


    Brisbane newspaper December 21, 2012
     
  8. irons

    irons Junior Member

    Which would lead to questions about concentration camps. Men together, facing death and despair every day. Surely it's human nature to want companionship and love? Like I say, very interesting thought provoking topic.

    Rudolph Hoess in his book about Auschwitz mentions this. The Germans saw what was going on, needless to say they didn't live long. Some were whipped to make them 'normal' They were placed in seperate blocks there were so many of them. They were given the harshest of work where many died. Suicides were common too when their partner died.
     
  9. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    I posted some details on here about British POW soldiers having a trial for homosexual relations with the PoW Camp sometime ago.

    I am in no doubt that there was homosexuality among POWs but I read an interesting comment from a NZ POW, when asked about homosexuality in prisoner camps, said that sex was the furthest thing from their minds, they were far more concerned about where their next meal was coming from.
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  11. I am in no doubt that there was homosexuality among POWs but I read an interesting comment from a NZ POW, when asked about homosexuality in prisoner camps, said that sex was the furthest thing from their minds, they were far more concerned about where their next meal was coming from.

    I imagine that probably was the major concern. And when I think about it if you're in a relationship - wife at home - just because you're in a POW camp with a load of men doesn't mean you're going to turn homosexual. If anything that love for the one at home grows stronger and you long for the day you will see them again.
     
  12. Joe Brown

    Joe Brown WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Only knew of one incident. It was in December 1939 and two lads were caught in the act, and within hours they were posted out of the Battalion. No explanations . . .

    Joe Brown
     
  13. Callisto

    Callisto Twitter ye not

    A couple more pages of posts since i last commented, which proves there is a little more info out there than i'd thought.


    A good find DaveB, thanks for posting and supplying a perspective of Australian forces too.
    A secret history of sexuality on the front


    This quote seems to tally then with a few responses, including the one immediately above.

    "But in historian Frank Bongiorno's new book The Sex Lives of Australians: a History, it is suggested as likely there were considerably more instances of homosexual activity in the defence forces than have survived the record because, when discovered, it was possibly dealt with ''quietly and informally, so as not to draw attention to its embarrassing presence''."

    Interesting also that the authorities involved in investigation mentioned in the article, seem to have distinguished between homosexual activity for whatever reason, and homosexuality.



    Thank you all for your comments so far, especially the anecdotes, i hope more can be added as and when references are found.
     
  14. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Callisto, is that Frankie Howerd in your avatar? If so, it's appropriate for this thread.
     
  15. Vitesse

    Vitesse Senior Member

    Newspaper obituaries often provide clues too: if you see somebody described as a "confirmed bachelor" or "he never married" that's code for homosexual, with the former suggesting less discretion and possibly even hinting at convictions for cottaging or the like. "Lifelong bachelor" falls somewhere between the two. Consider also "aesthete" or "aesthetically inclined".

    Couple any of those with “he lived life to the full” or “burdened by occasional irregularities in his private life” and you're starting to get a flavour of the person ;)

    Lesbianism is usually hinted at by "she never married" and/or a reference to "her long-term companion". "Enjoyed the tennis at Eastbourne" is another which is occasionally encountered - the male equivalent, which would have been "enjoyed the tennis at Queen's" was probably considered too near the mark!

    (For the uninitiated, Eastbourne and Queen's Club are the two tennis tournaments immediately preceding Wimbledon. Women play at Eastbourne, men at Queen's.)
     
  16. Callisto

    Callisto Twitter ye not

    Callisto, is that Frankie Howerd in your avatar? If so, it's appropriate for this thread.

    Indeed, it is.
    He might've said "Ooh err missus" :)



    Newspaper obituaries often provide clues too: if you see somebody described as a "confirmed bachelor" or "he never married" that's code for homosexual, with the former suggesting less discretion and possibly even hinting at convictions for cottaging or the like. "Lifelong bachelor" falls somewhere between the two. Consider also "aesthete" or "aesthetically inclined".

    Couple any of those with “he lived life to the full” or “burdened by occasional irregularities in his private life” and you're starting to get a flavour of the person ;)

    Lesbianism is usually hinted at by "she never married" and/or a reference to "her long-term companion". "Enjoyed the tennis at Eastbourne" is another which is occasionally encountered - the male equivalent, which would have been "enjoyed the tennis at Queen's" was probably considered too near the mark!

    (For the uninitiated, Eastbourne and Queen's Club are the two tennis tournaments immediately preceding Wimbledon. Women play at Eastbourne, men at Queen's.)


    Vitesse yes quite, the coding is quite an art in itself, so it was interesting to read for instance (IMO) Kenneth Kendall's recent obits making references to his partner just as others do to any family circumstances.
     
  17. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    - just because you're in a POW camp with a load of men doesn't mean you're going to turn homosexual.

    That's what I thought too. I would think that any person who started doing those things must have swung that way before he was captured.
     
  18. Vitesse

    Vitesse Senior Member

    Vitesse yes quite, the coding is quite an art in itself, so it was interesting to read for instance (IMO) Kenneth Kendall's recent obits making references to his partner just as others do to any family circumstances.
    Obits have become more candid about sexual proclivities in recent years. Perhaps AIDS played some part in that, but there was a "wind of change" which started in the 1980s when Hugh Massingberd took over the obits desk at the Telegraph. His own obit in the Telegraph has always struck me as excessively wordy and I think he would have trimmed it considerably, but I rather like this one: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/nyregion/30massingberd.html?pagewanted=all
     
    Callisto likes this.
  19. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Newspaper obituaries often provide clues too: if you see somebody described as a "confirmed bachelor" or "he never married" that's code for homosexual.......

    :unsure: Exceptions prove the rule and I can think of a number of exceptions.....not as simple as the post suggests.
     
  20. Re the POW camps, having been in a relationship where it was long distance for a couple of years I can honestly state that the heart grew fonder and I longed to be with her while we were apart. I just can't see a situation where men would turn homosexual just because they spent a number of years in a camp - no pun intended.

    Plus, as has been stated. Such were the appalling conditions and treatment that the main focus probably was survival.
     
    Shiny 9th and Dave55 like this.

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