HMT Thorbryn and landing craft lost on 19th August 1941

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by Steve49, Nov 19, 2021.

  1. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    As noted in ADM199/799, on 19th August 1941 HMT Thorbryn and was towing (probably, the sources are confused) landing craft LCT12 [A12] and LCM25 when attacked by German Ju87's east of Tobruk. All the vessels were sunk.

    I'm trying to clear up the casualties.

    For Thorbyrn I have:

    CHISHOLM, Walter B, Ty/Lieutenant, RNVR, MPK
    GRAVES, Bernard, Leading Steward, RNPS, LT/LX 30051, MPK
    GRONDLAND, Birgen S, Stoker, RNPS, LT/KX 116044, MPK
    O'SHEA, Douglas W, Ordinary Telegraphist, C/JX 206826, MPK
    RICHARDSON, Ronald F, Able Seaman, C/JX 167704, MPK
    ROSS, Colin, Ordinary Seaman Cook, RNPS, LT/JX 207737, MPK
    SKIPPER, George E, Ordinary Seaman, RNPS, LT/JX 174693, MPK
    WILSON, Dudley C, Ty/Lieutenant, RNVR, killed

    Additionally I have from shore establishment HMS Stag I have.

    JACKSON, Patrick D, Ty/Skipper, RNR, killed [noted by naval-history as being HMT Thorbyrn].
    MacDONALD, Angus N J, Seaman, RNR, D/X 10186B, (Stag), killed [Listed by CWGC on 18th, but naval-history says lost after a 'D-Lighter' bombed, see possibly related to the lost landing craft]

    Confusingly ADM199/799 says 26 killed in the attack, but looking through the CWGC deaths recorded on either the 18th or 19th August I can not locate any other associated losses. Any ideas/information to add to mine above, thanks.

    Regards,

    Steve

    Edit: Just had a look at the TNA catalogue and see that there is a file for Skpr Jackson (ADM358/3542), which refers to the loss of 'Lighter D25'... One to add to the research list for my next visit to Kew.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
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  2. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    This was a confusing morning, but it is important to note that the Germans credit the sinking of Thornbyrn (described as a 500t subhunter) to Italian planes, although there is no record of this in the 5a Squadra war diary.

    The British vessels are described as a 1,500 ton merchant, two tugs, and a sub-hunter. The crew of the subhunter was reported captured after making it ashore, 4 officers, 27 men reported captured.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
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  3. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Thanks Andreas,

    I guess that would explain the reference to 26 killed in the ADM199/799, should have referred to missing.

    I believe that LCT12 drifted ashore after the sinking of Thorbyrn, presumably with it crew and the survivors from the escort on board.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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  4. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

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  5. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    My information is from the DAK war diary and Panzerarmee daily report to Berlin and I checked the 5a Squadra (Italian air command) and I also checked the unit history of 209 Squadriglia, no operations noted for that day in either, so a bit strange where those Italian planes came from.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  6. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Adm Battle Summary 52 Tobruk Run notes the following losses in August:

    12/8 A.14 Tank Lighter Craft - mined in (sic!) Tobruk (presume she went for a walk)
    13/8 Aux Schooner Kephallinia - foundered off Matruh
    19/8 A/S Trawler Thorbryn - a/c off Tobruk
    27/8 M/S Whaler Skudd III - a/c at Tobruk

    Damaged:
    3/8 M/S Sotra - aircraft off Matruh
    27/8 HMS Phoebe - a/c torpedo off Tobruk

    All the best

    Adreas
     
  7. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Andreas, you are the specialist here:
    According to the KTB entries, the 1500-t steamer was sunk by Luftwaffe Stuka, Thorbryn and the LCT by Italian aircraft.
    One survivor spoke of Ju 88....The Regia Aeronatica had some in its inventory.
    Is it possible that such Italian bombers coming from e.g. Sicily were responsible?

    regards
    Olli
     
  8. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    The Regia Aeronautica had no Ju 88, they flew only Stukas (Ju 87) which wouldn't have come from Sicily. Two Ju 88s (would have been German LG1 from either Benina or Greece) are reported as having bombed installations at Tobruk. Maybe they got in on the party offshore?

    The only bi-engined bomber was the BR.20 which was based in North Africa but could have come from Greece I guess (not sure if they had any). The fact that there's nothing in the Comando Supremo war diary either is really strange.

    Where did you find the survivor info?

    BTW, as you note, the name was Thornbryn, as she was ex-Norwegian - might be an idea to correct the thread title.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  9. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Thanks for that, in my records I have the corrected it to Thorbryn, I hadn't noticed my typo.

    I've only ever seen the escort referred to as Thorbryn are you sure about the Thornbryn?

    Regarding the Battle report losses;

    LCT14(A14) was mined in Tobruk harbour on 12th (though some sources say 11th) its C/O was killed and 5 more crew wounded.

    GEORGE, Jack C, Skipper, RNR, killed [TOBRUK WAR CEMETERY] [Listed on 13/8/41]

    As you say, foundered in Mediterranean, about 40 miles from Alexandria. The vessel was taken under tow by destroyer HMS Hero, but later sank. 2 crew injured.

    Yes lost after being attacked by Axis aircraft at Tobruk at about 17:40. C/O Lt Robert C. MacMillan RCNVR (survived), but 1 Officer and 4 OR killed, 1 Officer DOW and 6 wounded.

    Damaged after being attacked by Axis aircraft near Tobruk. The vessel was strafed and sustained damage to its degaussing gear and sweep.
    C/O T/Skpr William T. Allen RNR was killed.

    Damaged after being attacked by an Italian S.79 (flown by Cap Giulio Marini from 279ͣ Sqd) in the Mediterranean, off Bardia at about 21:20. The cruiser was hit by one torpedo in the starboard side around Fr48 to Fr50. It left a 28-foot by 18-foot hole in the outer bottom and caused extensive damage between Fr35 to Fr87 from the keel to the lower decks and flooded all compartments up to the waterline between Fr34 to Fr57. 8 OR (including 1 OR RZN and 1 OR SANF) killed,

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  10. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    No that was my typo. It is Thorbryn.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
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  11. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    There were some - but I have not the slightest idea WHEN they were delivered....therefore my shot in the dark
    Or were there possibly a few Breda 88s still in use and got mixed up? (Usually the " big " Italians were in use with 3 engines)

    HMS Thorbryn sunk 19.08.1941 - Warsailors Forums 1st post:
    (...) Some sources mention that she was sunk by fourteen Ju 87. A survivor mentions four Ju 88. Can anyone provide which G.A.F. unit was involved?

    regards
    Olli
     
  12. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    On Aug. 3, Me 110 destroyers of ZG.26 damaged the UJ trawler Sotra north of Marsa Matruk.

    On Aug.12, the landing craft LCT-14, used for transports, sinks off Tobruk on an air mine laid by Ju 88s of LG.1

    And, to add to the confusion:
    On Aug. 19, German Ju 87s sink the ASW trawler Thorbryn and the landing craft LCT-12 east of Tobruk.
    source: Seekrieg 1941, August

    I confess, I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to air warfare or small surface units...now I'm very interested in who was responsible for the sinking

    regards
    Olli
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
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  13. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Thanks for the link!

    I don't consider eyewitness accounts in these kinds of situations reliable. Ju 88 were active, but my LG1 history is in Italy, so no idea at what time.

    The BR.20 was the only 2-engined Italian plane in the Ju 88 class.

    http://rommelsriposte.com/2009/04/14/regia-aeronautica-combat-planes-during-crusader/

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  14. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Enclosed is a rare picture of this bird in Italian service - but Anno 1943!
    Otherwise, I completely agree with you that a sailor does not necessarily have the best aircraft recognition skills (I know enough pilot reports that are also rather embarrassing in this regard).
    But if a German KTB explicitly attributes the sinking to the Italians, there must IMHO be something to it.
    In this respect my guess goes in the direction of four involved Italian 2-mot airplanes

    regards
    Olli
     
  15. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Ah, learn something new.

    No Ju 88 in Italian service in 1941 though.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  16. JohnH

    JohnH Active Member

  17. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Just posted the question on 12 o'clock high.

    This is intriguing, given that this is an LCM with the number 25: MLC / LCM Pennant Numbers - 1941 - Crete

    Some musings:

    1) Naval History Net has HMT Thorbyrn towing two D-Lighters (LCMs). You note one of them was LCM 25 (the one in the picture?).
    2) The Germans claimed the presence of a 1,500t merchant, a subhunter and two tugs, four total (checks out).
    3) There was no 1,500t merchant present, so this reported sinking is either LCT 12 or HMT Thorbryn.

    LCT 12 is not noted as a loss in Adm Battle Summary 52. Neither are the two D-Lighters. She is however noted as lost in the Middle East by Aug 41 here: British vessels lost at sea in World War 2 - landing ships and craft, LSI, LST, LCT, LCG, LCV, LCVP etc - that same link notes the loss of LCM25 by Aug 1942, but also notes the loss of LCT 14 for Aug 1941 but in Home Waters.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  18. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

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  19. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Grossartig! :cheers:
     
  20. Steve49

    Steve49 Boycott P&O...

    Hi Andreas,

    Sadly I my experience, the recording of landing craft losses in the Mediterranean theatre in 1941 was poor, which is reflected in the relatively vague comments in the post war loss lists such as 'lost cause unknown Middle East ../8/42'.

    Regarding LCT12 and LCT14 this is what I've managed to discover so far;

    LCT14 was mined at Tobruk, probably on 11th August. [ADM199/799 says on the 11th, British & Empire Warships says on 12th and the only fatal casualty is listed by CWGC on the 13th]

    LCT12 was badly damaged after an accidental fire whilst alongside No3 Pier, Tobruk. [ADM199/799 says was a total loss after this, but then lists it as being sunk in an air attack on the 19th August 1941.

    Regarding the losses of the 19th August, I believe the disabled LCT12 was being towed to Alexandria by HMT Thorbyrn (presumably for repair work to be carried out), together with two LCM's ('D-Lighters'). I'm hoping that the casualty report for Skpr Jackson (ADM358/3544) will bring some clarity to the identity of these two craft, but as the title of the report is 'Temporary Skipper P D Jackson, RNR: report of death in the loss of Lighter D 25' I'm assuming that LCM25 is one of the two lost. As far as I can see the other LCM could be LCM16 or LCM82, but I've not been able to find any definitive information on either loss.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
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