Hitler's Britain

Geoff

Our postings seem to have crossed

Only while I think of it, I was reminded of a posting I made last year about guard duty in the Whitby area in 1942. Yes, I know that by that time we had the victories at Alemain behind us, but the feelings of being alone in the world and expecting the Germans to appear on the horizon at any minute were completely true:
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/other-research/13600-youre-guard-mate.html

Ron

 

I suppose (If it hasn't been mentioned already) the whole host of nations that helped fight in the Battle of Britain too and not just Commonwealth countries.

Of course Andy however I was only putting forward the contribution of the Commonwealth who were already in Britain on the ground.

There were also French, Belgium, Dutch, etc who were rescued from France. There were between 350-500,000 returned to Britain. Poles, Czechs, etc fought in the Battle of Britain along side the British, Canadians, New Zealanders, Australians, Americans, South Africans and the list goes on.

This BoB and the heroism of these lads was possibly the strongest reason why there was not an invasion in the first place.

The army units Britain and these "allies" all showed outstanding courage in every theatre they participated in. I can only imagine how these brave brothers in arms would have fought in defence of Britain against the Germans.

It was not common knowledge then but released information shows the true availability of weapons and ammunition that was received and unloaded in June-July 1940.

I know the home guard only had one two or three cartridges each for their rifles but they were not going to be the main fighting force against an invasion. Trained troops were assigned to these defensive positions. Trained troops were to be allocated the BAR's, machine guns, mortars, 75mm field guns etc.


These munitions etc were received from the US just after Dunkirk in July 1940"

These are huge numbers!

- 785,000 .30 cal. Lee-Enfield rifles,
- 130 million rounds .30 ammo.
- 87,000 machine guns (various types)
- 6 million rounds .30 cal. machine gun ammo.
- 900 75mm field guns
- 1,075,000 75mm shells
- 308 3" Stokes mortars
- 97,680 Stokes mortar shells
- 25,000 BAR's
- 21,000 revolvers
- 1,000,000 revolver cartridges

The Australian 18th Brigade brought this war material with them when they arrived in Britain in June 1940.

In Tons Measurement.

115 Ordnance
200 Medical
70 Red Cross
75 Comforts
400 Canteen
230 Ammunition
1360 Reserve Rations
60 Emergency Rations
1150 War Equipment
Also 58 Vehicles


Add to this the manufacturing tonnage of equipment in the three months after Dunkirk and the proposed September/October date of the invasion.



Cheers

Geoff

 

Geoff

In the stormy days that Brian talks about we did not and could not know that "it would not have been sucessful"

As far as we in England knew at the time we were literally holding the fort, particularly after Dunkirk.

Regards

Ron

Hi Ron,

Quite true! At that time you would not have known as troop landings from other countries of the Commonwealth would not have been broadcast. You would have thought that you were alone. The feeling among you all after the devastation of Dunkirk must have been horrendous.

I was responding though in the present to a statement made in the present that you were not alone and that the German's were not just going to drop into Britain and take over in three months.

The reference to the Sandhurst War Gaming of the 70's was in support of my statement that the Germans would not have succeeded.

Cheers

Geoff

 

It also strikes me what a brave and risky decision it was to reinforce North Africa at the time that we were standing alone in Europe. It must have been tempting to cut our losses and just concentrate on home defence, but losing Egypt and possibly the Middle East would have made things pretty bleak. And our Dominion friends contributed a lot in North Africa too.

Hi James,

The initial point of training and equipping for the Australian 6th & 7th Divisions after leaving Australia was in Palestine before a planned return to England to fight with the BEF in France. This never eventuated of course and they remained in North Africa after Mussolini's declaration of war and his subsequent invasion into Egypt. Once the threat of the Sealion invasion had passed, the Brigades that were in Britain were re-arranged to the form three divisions (6th, 7th & 9th) in North Africa.

As you say it must have been a bit of a gamble.


Cheers

Geoff

 

The munitions you speak of are minuscule, when taking into consideration the troops that needed rearming. take it from me, we had nothing, despite what is now said.
The Home Guard did have Pikes"

I was in Southampton at the time, in the Home Guard during the Blitz. Those that had rifles, were put in charge of the defence of Totton Bridge. The main road into Southampton from the West. We had two rounds to defend against incoming Para's.
One round was accidentally fired. So we had one round to defend this vital bridge into the City.

If anyone thinks this is farcical? (it certainly was) I can assure you: it was deadly serious. Life was long hours of work a dash back to the digs, Change in uniform, then out at night on guard duty, or helping with the bombing victims.

It is very difficult to recreate the feeling of those times. No one that did not live through them, cannot imagine what it was like. And the Bombers came every night over Southampton. As soon as dusk arrived so did the sirens. That continued through the short summer nights, and the all clear at dawn.

A time I may add: when it was a great privilege to be a Britain. Or Englishman, what ever! Everywhere death visited. So many people lost loved ones. Each day outside the police station at the Civic centre the casualty list was posted. A lot of folk died during those times. Some quite horrific,when a bonb wnet through te shelter and killed everyone.
Sapper

 

ger,
There was no such place in 1940 !

I know that but I was referring to present day countries. I was afriad that by not mentioning Pakistan and only mentioning India, someone would have pulled me up on it . and it happened anyway, just cant win!!!

 

There were also French...who were rescued from France. There were between 350-500,000 returned to Britain.


But not very many stayed!!! Something like 300,000 evacuated French were cycled through and returned to France in the two weeks following the completion of DYNAMO, and many more after the Armistice and DeGaulle's broadcast at the end of the month to Frenchmen in uniform around the world; those who opted NOT to serve with the Free French were then also repatriated to Vichy.

The Belgians and Poles DID stay - the Poles in the end manned something like three divisions...but what was the status of the Belgians??? After all - Belgium was still a "nation", Leopold had signed a surrender with the Germans, WAS there actually a Belgian government in exile with the right to institute national forces??? Leopold as Commander-in-Chief of the Belgian Army had legally surrendered them. I'll have to check on that.

As for the Dutch - were they sent to the NEI???

 

We are now back in the wonderful world of hindsight and as my friend Bill Shakespeare said many years before "Aye, there's the rub"

You knew The Bard?




:curtsey:

 

You knew The Bard?



Indeed........ he lived just round the corner from me in the East End of London and his sister Ethel Shakespeare used to work in the local fish & chips shop.

Ron

 

But not very many stayed!!! Something like 300,000 evacuated French were cycled through and returned to France in the two weeks following the completion of DYNAMO, and many more after the Armistice and DeGaulle's broadcast at the end of the month to Frenchmen in uniform around the world; those who opted NOT to serve with the Free French were then also repatriated to Vichy.

The Belgians and Poles DID stay - the Poles in the end manned something like three divisions...but what was the status of the Belgians??? After all - Belgium was still a "nation", Leopold had signed a surrender with the Germans, WAS there actually a Belgian government in exile with the right to institute national forces??? Leopold as Commander-in-Chief of the Belgian Army had legally surrendered them. I'll have to check on that.

As for the Dutch - were they sent to the NEI???

I thought the figure was closer to 250,000 however I am not certain of the number of French and British that returned to France almost immediately to continue the fight. Most were then killed or captured. What was the make up by nationality of the 215,000 from Operation Ariel?

I know 50,000+ were the 52nd and the 20,000+ Canadians from St Malo. Were the remainder all French troops?

 

Operation Ariel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Operation Cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some stats here too mate but the thread never really took off.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/22764-operation-aerial-operation-cycle.html

 

It is remarkable how quickly humans can be made to endure a life lower than animals

 

Operation Ariel began on June 14 from the ports of Cherbourg and St Malo and ended on June 25, 1940 in accordance with the armistice terms signed by the French government


Hmm...didn't realise it took THAT long to complete fully. Are there any good literary studies of the events, particularly the part AFTER the Armistice?

 

As someone who was born during the war, I am always proud to describe myself to my children and grand children as a "war baby". I for one will never let them forget what is owed to my parents generation and what their life would have been like had we not continued to stand and fight the Germans.

Keith

 

I have but one concern.

When Brian & I are no longer here to explain why this is so, who will take on our cause ?

Ron


Your words and pictorial records will remain for all to see, sadly we can but imagine yet never experience the era. The direct link will be here for many a year- hopefully!


There’s a lass works down the chip shop swears she’s Ethel
Just like you swore to me that you’d be true
There’s a lass works down the chip shop swears she’s Ethel
But she’s a fibber and I’m not sure about you.

Ethel Shakespeare Purveyor of Fish and Chips,










British German Plans for the Invasion of England Operation SEALION 1947

 

Whilst in captivity. for those without Morse training it says. F*** Hitler!

 

Wills

Loved it !!!!!!!

Again, for the benefit of non-morse readers, look at the image below to see how cleverly the embroiderer has suggested, unbeknown to the German censor, his fervent wishes for the fuhrer

The literal conversion is as follows:

F U C K
.._./.._/ _._./ _._

H I T L E R
..../../ _/ ._ ../ . ._.


That was fun


Ron

 

A similar story of world war 1. Haig during a meeting with LLoyd George passed over a letter. The letter had been written home by a Welsh lad he ended the letter with give my love to; and then in Welsh listed some useful intelligence and a less than complimentary wish for the Kaiser! The censor had passed it.



Morse, we had finished a tour of NI and we were getting ready for an exercise in the Sudan real sand not like the Canadian Prairie. My boss had been the signals platoon bloke and the information was that the conditions at times distorted voice. Morse would get through. Here a present, says he -advised to put it next to my phone, as from now on we would be using training keys talk on the dog and bone using a dit and a dah! At first it led to - fae focks sake speak man! We got quiet good at it. There I was cheerfully making my way over to the mess of a Friday afternoon. Oh hello there, O' bugger it was my boss, Major D - thinking of spoilt mess time, he said Beaconsfield know it? Yes sir, languages,SAS and int course, that's the chap! Got you on a course, before or after the Sudan? Instead of, you and CSgt C are to report Monday! In the mess I sought out Jimmy what is that all about, he knew as much. The sergeant major indicated to me to join him he took myself and Jimmy outside you are going to be running int cells - Int Cells, there was only one place where an invitation to run an int cell - NI , the idea of asking if HM the Queen had other openings passed over quickly. We were to keep stum or else - I had seen people who had been to Else! Not for me. So Jimmy,me and the battalion to keep us company went back to NI! After we got back to London we were invited by the the CO to see him with his new OBE. which was awarded apparently for our emergency tour. I cannot begin to tell you how pleased we all were, so much so you could hear - 'fae focks sake!'

 

Just found this more detailed info regarding the chap who did the actual embroidery.

Two words in Morse code show defiance to Führer: PoW who stitched up Hitler in message that his henchman failed to spot | Mail Online

Ron

 

Whilst browsing on the ww2f site this morning I came across this old film titled "Hitler's Britain"

I found the original film on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTy8yHXt7Q0

I know that the "What if?" syndrome as a topic is frowned upon by various Mods on this site but I contend that in the WW2 that I experienced, invasion by the Germans was a genuine consideration and the possibility that Hitler might have launched such an operation was, in my opinion, a genuine threat at the times of which we speak.

Whether or not he could have succeeded, is another story.

Find an hour and a half and watch this video.

Ron