Here's my take on how Germany could have won

Discussion in 'The Third Reich' started by Patrick66, May 30, 2021.

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  1. Patrick66

    Patrick66 Member

    I'm used to it. The vast majority of people are opposed to the free flow of ideas. Go to just about any forum on any topic and you'll find hordes of people triggered and upset and demanding that the discussion be annihilated. That is, of course, the mantra of the ignorant and the foolish.
    Slipdigit likes this.
  2. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Everyone has the right to an opinion but not a right to have their opinions respected. As well as rights we have responsibilities. The vast majority of online interaction takes place between people who know very little about which they opine. I think an automatic attack on anyone who disagrees as 'triggered' is a mantra of the ignorant and the foolish.
    CL1, alberk, Orwell1984 and 1 other person like this.
  3. Patrick66

    Patrick66 Member

    Where did I do that, ------
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2021
  4. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Well, this is going downhill quickly, but - Patrick, it's not clear from your post #21 whether you mean that to apply to the posters here or not, and some folks might take offense.
    Orwell1984 likes this.
  5. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    I do not believe that the 'free flow of ideas' is a divine right and that having your 'free flow' challenged is a freedom of speech issue. I also saw the use of the term 'triggered' as a dog-whistle.
  6. Patrick66

    Patrick66 Member

    I never said it was, ------
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2021
  7. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    With WI I have no problems, in the AHF there were some in which I participated.
    A halfway reasonably calculable WI scenario deviates however only few angular degrees from the real event horizon. An approach, by the way, that is also occasionally used in experimental archaeology....Behind this is always the idea of gaining knowledge: Why this way and not another?

    The scenario thought of in this thread, however, must necessarily lead into a factual vacuum:

    The "Lebensraum" idea was one of THE fundamental ideological cornerstones in AH's entire worldview
    The same applies to his militant anti-Semitism, which eventually led to the "Final Solution"
    As well as the inhuman treatment of the Soviet POW's, who were considered subhumans.

    Any scenario based on the assumption that these factors would have been avoided presupposes a completely different personality of AH.
    However, one would be in a parallel universe where Hugo Strasser would have won the power struggle in the NSDAP or Germany would be ruled by a military junta under Ludwig Beck. The list could be continued ad infinitum....

    So here, any further hypothetical continuation of the time line must de facto be on the same level as science-fiction novels. Or, to put it mathematically: We work with an equation which consists exclusively of unknowns!
    It is legitimate to try, but there are far more suitable platforms than this forum.
    alberk and Tricky Dicky like this.
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Maybe members should read this.

    Forum Guidelines/Rules.

    Patrick66. I have removed your insults.
    I'm going soft in my old age.
    I did ban you but thought I'd give you a second chance.
    I've sent you a warning .
    Patrick66 likes this.
  9. smdarby

    smdarby Well-Known Member

    My post was meant as a compliment. Over the years I've seen countless new people here posting "what ifs". Once told this is not permitted they often get snarky and are either banned or disappear. Your response was a pleasant surprise and I was hoping you'd accept the rules and continue to post, since your first post was well written (even though it broke the rules).

    As explained by the powers that be, what ifs usually lead to poor debates since anyone can add any scenario, no matter how ridiculous. They often degenerate into arguments, as do posts about politics, which are also not permitted. It's a sensible policy and we all accept the rules. Experience has shown this works. It is not about curbing ideas. If you want to discuss such topics then there are other places you can do this.

    An old lawyers tip - if you can't ask a question in a certain way then try another way e.g. "what effect did Stalin's purges of the officer corps in the 1930's have on the effectiveness of the fighting ability of the Red Army?" I wouldn't be surprised if someone had some figures or other information on this.

    And, of course, personal insults should always be avoided.
    CL1, Harry Ree, Slipdigit and 2 others like this.
  10. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    I like that WI and AH discussion is disallowed here. It tends to better keep the discussion out of the ditches.

    It is allowed at WW2F and over the years we have had more problems with unruly discussion by members that has resulted in a large number of bannings for members who can't differentiate between opinion and verifiable facts and then won't shut up about it.

    Consequently, we have slowly tried to squelch such discussion but it is still a headache for moderators.

    I appreciate that Patrick accepted the forum rules graciously and a little return fellowship goes a long way towards developing good discussion.

    And smdarby, you are on spot with your alternative way of addressing the conundrum as it asks for fact and not opinion.
    CL1 likes this.
  11. Patrick66

    Patrick66 Member

    Assign a sub-forum for such discussion. It amazes me that so many guys are opposed to someone else discussing a topic that is of interest to them. Those guys need to get a grip and get a life. If they don't like the topic then stay the Hell out of it. How hard is that? Years back there was a movie playing at the theater called "Brokeback Mountain". It's a movie about 2 gay cowboys. I had no interest in it. Guess what? I didn't go. I didn't complain like a little girl and ask that the movie be removed in order that others couldn't watch it.

    A discussion forum is for DISCUSSION. Guys that call for discussion on a "discussion" forum to be annihilated are the problem, not guys like me. Again, if you don't like my OPINION, then put me on "ignore" and then those that want to read and engage with me can do so. Pretty ****ing simple concept. And if that's not good enough, then get some Vagicream and apply it generously the next time other gents are engaged in a discussion that one finds upsetting.
  12. Patrick66

    Patrick66 Member

    Thanks. I am a staunch supporter of exercising the flow of ideas, even BAD ideas. The vast majority of humanity is opposed to the expression of topics with which they disagree. For them, only POPULAR ideas should be permitted to be discussed. I think that is cowardly. If another's idea is flawed, then let it fail on its own merit or lack thereof.
  13. Patrick66

    Patrick66 Member

    Absolutely true.

    My motivation for sharing my thoughts was based on the belief that there was no way possible for the Germans to "win" against the Soviets. In listening to the book in my OP, it became evident to me that there was a way for the Germans to defeat the Soviets on the three conditions that I outlined there.

    Millions of Soviet troops surrendered in 1941. Imagine if the Germans had treated them well and told them that they wanted to remove the genocidal Stalin from power.

    Hitler could have had a scaled down version of his Lebensraum by keeping only Poland.

    We'll never know but I believe that this approach not only could have defeated the Soviets, but would have!

    So let's suppose that this happened.

    The Germans withdraw from Norway, France, and the low countries and make peace with them. The Brits would have been forced to either go it alone or accept the new status and also make peace, which I think they would have done.

  14. Patrick66

    Patrick66 Member

    I'm tempted to start another "alternative history" thread but don't want to clutter the forum with such discussions so I guess I'll throw this one out there here.

    What if the Japanese hadn't attacked the U.S.? What if the Japanese had avoided the Philippines but went ahead with all of the other conquests that they made in the far-east? We know they wanted to seize the oil in that region as the U.S. stopped selling to them. Would the U.S. have declared war on Japan? Can anyone conclusively answer that question? I can't. If the answer is "no", the U.S. would NOT have gone to war with Japan, which certainly could have had implications for the Soviets in their war against the Germans.
  15. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    Here we go again!

    New Thread on D-Day?
    Owen likes this.
  16. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Do you know what happened Armchair General Forums? It was destroyed by people who thought their right to 'free speech' was the most important thing in the world and NOTHING was going to stop them from exercising their 'whatever' amendment rights. It became a forum full of lunatics screaming abuse at each other. It always, always always ends up as a left-v right slanging match. Dog-whistle terms creep in and given there is a built-in bias in one particular political direction on these type of boards it quickly turns ugly . I am of the opinion that 'The Barracks' should have no place on a Historical Forum. Currently AHF has had an influx of former AG members and the 'What If' section has become the most active and divisive part. It does not bode well.
    alberk and Orwell1984 like this.
  17. Patrick66

    Patrick66 Member

    LOL. Most of the guys in this thread don't want to discuss matters pertaining to the second world war. Instead, they want to cry and whine. What an embarrassment.

    I'll take my own advice and start putting these incessant complainers on "ignore". If you want to discuss the topic of the thread then please do so. From here on out, anyone who responds off-topic will be put on "ignore".
  18. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Simon Trew and Stave Zaloga are also members. Its a good place to find axis oriented information.
  19. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    well it's been entertaining, total bollocks but entertaining. Sorry had to be said.
  20. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Where the hell did this come from - you have no idea what any of the members are involved in, that comment is disrespectful

    Please ignore me

    alberk, Dave55, ltdan and 2 others like this.
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