Here we Go Again - Our vandalised War Cemeteries - A pragmatic view!

Great efforts by the CWGC in rebuilding our damaged memorials and headstones in IRAQ.
Article here: Rebuilding memorials to war heroes that fought for Britain

However, when I read phrases like:...

1. ''For almost three decades, however, the valiant effort by the CWGC to ensure such sacrifices
were never forgotten has been hampered by conflict.''

2. ''Today Iraq remains a major site for the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, but years of conflict, from Sadaam Hussein to Islamic State, mean many are near ruin.''

3. ''Other than the UK, Iraq is surpassed only by France, Belgium and India in the number of Commonwealth graves. Most of the 54,000 who perished there will be remembered only by their names, ranks and service number carved on headstones or memorial plaques.''

4. ''Many cemeteries, such as the one in Mosul, lay completely destroyed. Its headstones were demolished deliberately by Islamic fundamentalists and by shelling in the fight to retake the former IS stronghold.''

5. "Renovating a cemetery isn't a simple job; it requires surveys, technical expertise, stone masonry skills and a conservation statement. It's about finding people you can trust, and Iraq hasn't been stable enough."

6. ''The number of British graves in Iraq, 17,632,''

...I cannot help but think ''this will/is going to happen again!!!''
Forgive my pessimism here but I cannot see a future period when we are going to have long-term peace in the Middle East, and, as we recently saw in Northern Ireland, it doesn't take much to stir-up anger and hatred - and all without prior warning!

Possible solutions:

a. Repatriation...starting with cemeteries of <200 remains (costs met by CWGC and host Governments)?
b. Re-locating cemeteries within military compounds (similar to Terendak Camp, Malacca Straits, Malaysia)?
c. Local military taking responsibility for security and access to such existing sites?
d. One I've thought about a-lot: Replace all headstones with pedestal markers (easier to manufacture, transport, install and repair).

And finally, this comment: "We owe that debt to those casualties buried there."
Indeed we do BUT we owe an even greater responsibility to their relatives and loved ones
such that they are not subjected to future images of these cemeteries that look like something from WW1 and, equally, via YouTube, moving images of people attacking headstones and Cross Of Sacrifice' with hammers!

Overall: A very very sad reflection of the world we live-in nowadays!

Tony Buckley www.asiawargraves.com

 

Hello Tony
I agree with you.
This is not going to be fixed anytime soon.
The sensible option would be to have a memorial back in the UK with all their names on it this would ensure their names are continually remembered.

Regards
Clive

 

Food for thought there Tony. Going forward, these types of incidents are bound to increase.

 

Tony,

Thanks for posting. It would seem that repatriation is the only long term solution, especially if the cemeteries are perceived as being unwelcome reminders of British colonialism.

Personally, I see the location of these cemeteries as being a sad reflection of the world as it was in the first half of the Twentieth Century, rather than their being damaged telling us anything about the world in 2019.

Regards

Tom

 

Difficult subject - I'm only largely been exposed to the CWGC cemeteries in Italy and Tunisia which are, without exception, impeccably maintained by local employed horticulturalists, caretakers and other staff.

For Iraq, my amateur analysis of the CWGC figures shows the following:

BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) (KHANAQIN) MEMORIAL 542
BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY 4,487

BASRA INDIAN FORCES CEMETERY 280
BASRA CREMATION MEMORIAL 1,032
BASRA WAR CEMETERY 2,890
BASRA MEMORIAL 40,640
BASRA (MAKINA) CIVIL CEMETERY 2

HABBANIYA MEMORIAL 106
HABBANIYA WAR CEMETERY 173

MOSUL WAR CEMETERY 152

KUT WAR CEMETERY 410

KARBALA ISOLATED GRAVE 1

ALWIYA INDIAN WAR CEMETERY 1

AMARA (LEFT BANK) INDIAN WAR CEMETERY 9
AMARA WAR CEMETERY 3,704

TOTAL 54,429

51,427 of the deaths date from the period during or soon after the end of the First World War.

 

The problem with repatriation is that if the soil/grave has been disturbed and the individual skeletal remains have been mixed then that would cause a major issue for any reburial in the UK or elsewhere.

 

...unless the headstones are engraved as "known to have been buried" or similar ? These commemorate men who are buried in a cemetery but whose exact location is unknown .....Just a thought,of course like so much these days the costing would always be the main consideration..greedy world I`m afraid

Image from aircrew remembered

Kyle

 

I have asked this question if senior members of staff at the CWGC.
Originally I asked if any of the Cemeteries were to be rebuilt in Iraq, only to be told that several already have been. Kut was the first, and looks wonderful. Others were being worked on by local contractors.
I then asked about the inaccessibility to the Basra Memorial. Yes it was a good thing that a certain Saddam Hussein did in having it moved from a city in conflict, but to the relatives of the 40000+ it is now even more inaccessible. I asked if anybody had thought about either a) relocating the original back to the UK, or building a replica here, and the answer came back to both as a big fat no.

 

You are right Kyle, cost is going to be the issue for any plans to relocate/reinterment of any graves. My grandad rests in Rangoon War Cemetery, but his precise location is not known, so he and around 60 others have the legend: Buried Near This Spot on their grave plaques. Might be a way forward.

 

The answer from CWGC.

Abandoned: Over the years, and due to a number of reasons, various cemetery sites and individual graves could no longer be maintained by the CWGC. We call these sites and graves 'abandoned'. Usually, the abandonment occurred as the sites were declared unmaintainable, possibly due to their physical setting, or changes in the political situation in the country they were located. While the site may have been abandoned, the CWGC's responsibility to the individual war dead was maintained by providing an alternative commemoration elsewhere.
Glossary

 

The CWGC have exhumed men and moved them before. When the locals on Kos objected to a cemetery on their land the lads there were exhumed and moved to Rhodes .Different circumstances and like before they will take the cheaper option

Reasons behind closure of War Cemetery

Kyle

 

Costs will always be a prime factor in situations such as this one i.e. repatriating remains and memorials from those locations where, as history shows, are prone to vandalism etc.
BTW: I'm NOT thinking here of TOTAL repatriation, but only of those areas where vandalism tends to occur on a 'regular' basis.
The CWGC don't have to (necessarily) face these costs as, given the recent outpouring for financial support towards the rebuilding of Notre Dame (companies seem to be falling-over themselves in offering financial support) I suspect that similar support would come from the commercial sector - if offered the opportunity to do so.

More than €600m pledged to help rebuild Notre Dame after fire

Tony Buckley www.asiawargraves.com

 

I suspect that you spoke to the UK 'branch' of the CWGC. For a number of years now, both Australia and New Zealand have been repatriating their veterans. The whole process appears to be kept low-key but, it is on-going. One such link here:
Soldiers' bodies to be brought home after change in Government's repatriation policy

See what happened to this man (read: how he was treated!) when he went from NZ to the CWGC offfice in London:
Exclusive - A Son's Battle Part 1
Exclusive - A Son's Battle Part 2

My point on above: The CWGC consists of 6 countries of which 2, NZ and Oz, are actively repatriating their veterans!

Tony Buckley www.asiawargraves.com

 

An interesting list showing 15 locations where our War Dead are both interred and commemorated in IRAQ. With a bit of careful planning - looking at those figures a bit-closer - how difficult would it be if we decided to re-locate 13 of those sites to Basra and Baghdad such that ALL our interred and commemorated were to be found in just 2 locations - instead of 15?

Tony Buckley www.asiawargraves.com

.

 

Very true! When challenged - via Public/Families/Legal means - it's surprising how quickly Governments can change their 'policies' towards repatriation. And, as a politician, one must always be conscious of the 'power-of-the-voter'!

Soldiers' bodies to be brought home after change in Government's repatriation policy

Tony Buckley www.asiawargraves.com

 

Opinions will differ considerably and we all respect those opinions. I would ,without any real knowledge of costs and logistics, possibly favour repatriation but that decision should be one for the families (those interested enough ) would need to have input on.
The reasons are possibly the direct opposite of those kindly input by Adam above . With time I think the horrors of what these men went through (all servicemen) are forgotten and glossed over with quotes such as those highlighted Beneath the ground in most cases ,masked by those beautifully tended lawns and horticulture are the remains of men and women in most cases whose lives ended in a most violent way. Yes bones now,but once young living breathing people who I am sure were anxious to get the job done and return home ? Sadly for these people they didnt return would it be wrong to bring them home now?
Memorials over empty tombs are symbolic and in some cases where the remains are `missing` necessary, `their names liveth forever` the stones proclaim but nothing lasts forever paper,stone,bronze...people are all forgotten in time . The CWGC and before them the IWGC have done a magnificent job maintaining the last resting places of these servicemen and protect the memory of what were people ,not just names or bones,but people like all of us on here We commemorate them as people not just as a list of names each was an individual with a unique life ahead of them which was taken not given up... leaving these people in neglected areas would eventually lead to them being forgotten altogether. (Just like those who died in wars pre dating the CWGC)
It will never happen due to cost (as previous posts) but speaking from the heart I would bring them home.

(No disrespect or disagreement with anyone elses personal views just thought I would put down a few thoughts)

Kyle

 

"The problem with repatriation is that if the soil/grave has been disturbed and the individual skeletal remains have been mixed then that would cause a major issue for any reburial in the UK or elsewhere.DNA profile work would be required but the cost would be huge."
You can place known to be buried in this cemetery/nearby headstones if it is in the same cemetery.
CWGC already struggle to contact living relatives of casualties with queries in 2019.

Also those of us who deal with headstones casualties in the UK see the issues CWGC have in keeping the 12300 burial sites within the UK in good order

You will possibly have an issue with casualties buried elsewhere in the world whereby living relatives could request repatriation once they see the news of the war zone repatriation work if that were to go ahead

A few options

1 Leave as is with the hope the country will become more stable in months/years to enable a fix with a robust solution for the cemeteries.
2 Produce a memorial with all casualty names and situate in a safe zone within that country.
3 Produce a memorial and place at the National Memorial Arboretum in the UK.




The safe keeping of the workforce plus transportation costs would be huge.

See details of the American repatriation after WW2 with costs if you times that up to the current day cost you will see it runs into a very high number

This section of the website will provide you with a glimps of the Repatriation Program after World War II, carried out by the United States of America.

In 1946 legislation passed Congress providing for the final burial of the American World War II soldiers who were killed. The task of carrying out this massive programm was given to the Office of the Quartermaster General.

According to War Department figures, the cost to the government of returning remains of one member of the armed forces, including cost of casket and case, was estimated to be $ 657,00.
Repatriation program

 

Local primary kids visiting the Kut CWGC cemetery

There`s always good and bad stories floating around and whilst uplifting stories such as those from Gaza are welcomed (and most times ignored) its images such as that above which raise concern and anger.

Kyle