Hi there I have spent some time on the site and tried to find out as much as I can regarding my father's war records. They were complete double dutch to me, but so far, thanks to this site, I have managed to decipher: Assigned to R.E.M.E Rank of Private Attached to 11th Battalion Royal Army Ordnance Corp Sent to North Africa BNAF Awarded Italy Star Transferred from Central Mediterranean Forces to Middle Eastern Forces There are lots of things in there I still don't understand, so if anyone can fill in the gaps I'd really appreciate it. There are lots of pages, sorry. Please take down anything that is irrelevant. Many thanks Debbie
Hello Debbie it might be an idea to list the areas you are stuck on to give forum members a pointer regards Clive
Hi, Debbie, Welcome to WW2Talk. Yes these records can be difficult to understand as you tend to get multiple entries meaning the same thing. So bear with me as it can take awhile to sort through them. At least you have posted them up so they can be read. Edward Arthur May. b.15th March 1914. Called up to G.S.C. (General Service Corps) 3rd June 1943. He was based here No 1 PTC (Primary Training Camp) Saighton Chester. NAA Saighton Camp, Chester Not sure when GSC was set up. but this corps took in the men, called up for the army. with the intention of putting them through basic training,marching, learning to use guns etc usually took six weeks, then to send them to the branch of the army they were best suited for. As Edward was already a I.C. Engine fitter (Internal Combustion) he would be a suitable candidate for the R.E.M.E. (Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers). So on 13th July 43 he was transferred to the R.E.M.E. and posted to Depot holding Battalion WEF 15th July 43 (With effect from). His late call up to the army was possible due to his previous work as an engine fitter. More later.
Hi Clive, thanks for replying. I'm trying to get a grip on his movements from when he signed up to when he was released from service. So I'm pretty stuck on everything except what I listed above. It's hard to read the writing especially when you have no knowledge of the terms or names.
That is a great help RCG. I had been spending most of Friday and yesterday trying to work out what that first place word was. For some reason I thought it was Singleton. This place is a godsend and your time is so very appreciated. Also thank you for the link, it's all such valuable information.
Posted only to illustrate the coincidence but one of my uncles was transferred to the REME on the same date 15 07 1943. He had previously been an engineer in the Merchant Navy and subsequently went back to the MN in the early part of 44. What records I do have say he had just 296 days service but his certificate of service (B.108J) gives am effective discharge date of 06 07 51. I am still trying to timeline all this but I gather this may have been due to greater shortages of marine engineers in the run up to D Day and I have evidence that he was off Normandy as a ships engineer withing a few days of the 6th June.
The next bit shows that on his transfer to the REME, he went to Catford. And shows the army authority order number that he was transferred under. As he had been trade tested whilst in the GSC, When he was mustered to the REME he was classed as Fitter MV GP (Motor vehicle General Purpose, at grade D. Then it looks as if he took another exam and was upgraded to from Trade Tested D,to the REME grade of Fitter Motor vehicle A3. Transfer to REME Ante-dated to 3rd June 43. This means that the time he spent in the GSC was then classed as service in the REME. 28th July 43. He was Permanently attached to 11th RAOC Royal Army Ordnance Corps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Army_Ordnance_Corps It looks as if he was made up to Corporal whilst he was at Catford and was in B company under Officer Commanding, Captain Allard or something like that. 1st Sept 43. His units designation was changed to No 6 central W/S (Work shops) REME. And moved to Greenford Middlesex. Now the Metropolitan centre. Nr RAF Northolt. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...ae8557f!8m2!3d51.5421981!4d-0.361945?hl=en-GB http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/44/a3658944.shtml Until 7th Nov 43 when he moved up to Arnold in Nottinghamshire.
Wow, that is such a great bundle of information right there. Many thanks again RCG for your time and the indepth content of your reply. And hutt what are the chances of that. Your uncle was only in the R.E.M.E. for a very short time though. I wonder why he was transferred.
7th Nov 43 Posted to Mobilisation and holding centre. Arnold Notts. At the mobilisation centre No 6 central W/S REME were given the draft code RDFYK. This was a code given to all men and equipment that were going to be posted overseas this was to insure that everything went onto the same ship and reached the same destination. Earlier that year another REME draft had left Arnold. S.O.S of HQ Ist Bn REME, Mill Hill posted M of Centre Arnold REME for Draft R.D.Y.H.H 14/07/43 http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/ist-batt-reme-mill-hill-1943.28748/ 12th Nov. They were then SOS (Struck of Strength) of Mob and holding centre. Arnold. Embarked UK. 27th Nov 43. Disembarked BNAF (British North Africa Force). The convoy nearest to these dates is KMF26 which left the Clyde on 15th Nov and arrived Alexandria 30th Nov. So it looks as if he disembarked at a port somewhere along the N Africa coast. http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/hague/ Possibly Algiers as Convoy KMF26 was attacked by German aircraft on the 26th Nov just past Oran Algieria. A Calamity at Sea, 70 Years Ago - History in the Headlines
Debbie I would not say that I am that knowledgeable it's just that I enjoy researching and finding out about what those men like your father went through just for us. . Once disembarked. TOS X(iv) list (Taken on strength). X(iv) list comprises reinforcements. 8th Jan 44 23rd Armoured troops W/S TOS from X(iv) list 8th Dec 43. Remustered Veh Mech 3. 10th April 44 Unit redesignated 664 Tank Troops w/s. Ignoring the line: 8th Dec 43. Remustered Veh Mech 3. As it’s in the wrong place. What do the other three lines tell us about Edward’s Service? What follows now is my interpretation of what went on, as I have no access to army orders issued at the time, it is only guesswork. I think that these REME units were originally meant to replace/relieve those workshops already in Italy, as they would be pretty war weary after slogging half way up Italy. But at the end of 1943, following the Allied invasion of Italy, Allied forces were bogged down at the Gustav Line, a defensive line across Italy south of the strategic objective of Rome. So before the replacement/relief of the workshops could take place, the plan to land at Anzio was taking shape. This would account for REME units becoming part of 23rd Armoured troops W/S on 8th Jan 44. Which I think may have actually been 23rd Armoured brigade. Again only guessing that, Edward landed on Peter beach Anzio on or after 22nd Jan 1944. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23rd_Armoured_Brigade_(United_Kingdom) See Para. In early January 1944, the 46th RTR was detached from the brigade to come under command of the British 1st Infantry Division for the landings at Anzio, workshops/work in italy 10th April 44 Unit redesignated 664 Tank Troops w/s. An interesting mention in the Gazette 13th Dec 1945. BATCHELOR, WILLIAM THOMAS, CRAFTSMAN, ACTING LANCE CORPORAL, 5338521 664 TANK TROOPS WORKSHOP Italy, awarded British Empire Medal. Also a file here. Tank Troops Workshops: 664 Wksp. | The National Archives
Once again thank you. I find all this information fascinating. I found the following link as well, with more information on 664 Tank Troop Workshop in Italy, which was involved in converting Sherman Tanks into personnel carriers. Allied WWII AFV Discussion Group:
Hi Debbie I am convinced that 23rd Armoured Troops workshop were never associated with 23rd Armoured Brigade. I have the war diaries for 23rd Armoured Brigade REME workshops for the whole of 1944 and 1945 and there are no entries of them ever using another name. Also when you father arrived in North Africa with 23rd Armoured Troops workshop on 08/01/44, 23rd Armoured Brigade were already in Italy. Your father’s unit, 23rd Armoured Troops workshop, was renamed 664 Tank Troops Workshop on 10/04/44. In the National Archives Discovery search engine you can find war diaries for 664 Tank Troops Workshop covering the whole of 1944 (WO 170/2976) and up to September 1945 (WO 170/6625) and groups them within the War Diaries of the Italian theatre. This would suggest that 664 Tank Troops Workshop remained in ITALY. Your father receiving a Italy Star would also support this. By June 1944 however, 23rd Armoured Brigade had moved to Egypt and then Palestine. by October 1944,they were in GREECE. Your father then joined 729 Workshops Company (REME?) on 15/12/45. I have found nothing at all about this unit online. Your father finally joined 23rd Armoured Brigade REME workshops in GREECE on 21/03/46. He only stayed with them until May 1946 as the Brigade was disbanded in the same month. In December 1945, 23rd Armoured Brigade REME workshops was located in Isthmia, located at the southern end of the Corinth Canal. He then joined 342 Infantry Troops Workshops (REME) who were located (at least in late 1944/early 1945) in a Foundry in the Ymittos district of Athens. 30 Reception Camp was the place in Athens which controlled all personnel movement into and out of Greece. Your father would have been there on 29/10/46 in preparation for his return to the UK I hope you find this useful. Gus PS. My father was also in Greece with 23rd Armoured Brigade REME workshops, but left for the UK in August 1945.
Wow, this is a lot to get my head around. You say you have the War Diaries for the 23rd Armoured Brigade. Did you get them from the National Archives? And if so did you apply for them online or go to Kew in person? I'm wanting to explore this avenue further and wondering whether it would be easier to actually go to Kew and see for myself, or to get them to supply the information electronically. I'm just north of London so it wouldn't be too much of feat to go there myself, but I'm not sure how easy it is to track down what I need. Anyway, the rest of what you have written is such a great help, Gus, and I really feel like I'm building up a picture with all the input I'm receving here, so thank you.
There may be a bit of confusion here, on the records this line 8th Jan 44 23rd Armoured troops W/S TOS from X(iv) list. is written as 23 armd Tps W/s TOS from X(iv) list. 8.1.44. As I could not find any information on 23rd Armoured troops W/S. I assumed it should be 23rd Armoured Brigade, troops W/S, which I mentioned later on in my post. As far as I am aware they were still No 6 central W/S REME when arriving in N Africa. There is no real evidence as what unit was actually redesignated to 664 Tank Troops w/s on 10th April 44. So the only way to find this information would be to view this file Tank Troops Workshops: 664 Wksp. | The National Archives Click on more ways to view this record and it will tell you what you need to do if you visit personally It can be very expensive if you ask them to send you a copy.
RCG: You are right that the only practical way of establishing the correct identity and location of the unit Debbie's father was with in April 1944 is by reading the 1944 war diaries of 664 Armoured Troops workshop and hoping that there's a reference to the name change at the start. Debbie: I have been to Kew a few times now and have photographed thousands of pages of documents. Lost of info about going to Kew available at National Archives - Kew Tips? Gus