Help with locating Transit Camps and Base Depots.

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by red ling, Apr 8, 2012.

  1. red ling

    red ling Member

    I have my fathers service records and I would like to know where the following were located.
    170 Transit Camp, and HQ 72 and HQ 76 in the Sudan.
    Also the 3 coy Base Depot, 12 Detail Issue Depot, 2 coy Base Depot and 1 coy Base depot.
    I have attached the relevant pages which are also full of order nos and authorities that I am trying to decifer.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    The locations others may help with. Staff work I can make sense of - or most of it - it changed considerably. This sheet also has a promotion occurrence entered in error and corrected. I have not reproduced all dates and file numbers. As I translate I will add to what I have already posted.

    Column A is the Part II (2) file reference and date
    Column B Unit
    Column C occurrence


    24/9/40 Royal Sussex Regt
    1/2/41 Admitted 53 Gen Hospital -Sudan
    8/2/41 Discharged ----do----
    9/7/41 Posted
    2/7/41 Unpaid acting lcpl - Paid Acting lcpl
    6/12/41 relinquish appointment (Lance Corporal was not a rank then) of Paid Acting Lance Corporal. On Transfer to RASC
    6/12/41 CTBA (Ceased to be Attached) Line of Command Port Sudan. To Transit camp Port Sudan X (i)
    8/12/41 Compulsorily transferred to RASC under provisions of AGI (Adjutant Generals Instruction) 626/39 Authority War Office letter 20/misc1008 AGI SOS (struck off strength) ME WEF (with effect) same date.
    Confirmed transfer to RASC under AGI 626/39 in rank of private.
    Passed TT - trade test as clerk Group C -Clerk 3b
    and mustered wef authority for transfer WO letter 20/misc/1008 AGI D7 of 7/4/40
    X list - 170 transit camp- promoted Paid Acting Cpl
    Confirm War Substantive Cpl - 4/2/42
    Pay acting Sergeant 24/2/42
    Promoted Acting unpaid Sgt (!)

    here we have a correction!

    amend to read granted pay of acting Sgt on 4/2/42 wef 14/1/41 not as previously published confirmed War Substantive Sgt (some very accelerated promotion going on)


    Attached from 170 T/camp to HQ 72 Sub area
    X list - TOS - taken on strength Sudan Defence Force SOS ME - (Extract from SDF Part II order No 44 of 11/11/42)
    Sudan Defence Force German test Oral (Slight) Written (moderate)
    French Oral (slight)
    Taken on strength (TOS) SDF and posted to HQ 79 sub area.

    Admit hospital to X list x(ii)
    28 days leave with SLR Standard Local Rate - this is a ration allowance paid at the standard rate as he is not on a units ration strength whilst on leave.
    Re admitted to hospital.
    several Hospital admissions
    Until 19/6/43 SOS SDF to RASC Base Depot.
    Posting to GHQ from 12 DID
    posted to 1SLD from base depot

    As he has moved from HQs and
    arrived at GHQ he was granted
    HRM (Higher Rate Messing) at 8' 4'' - 8 Shillings and fourpence per diem. confirmed at each location.


    To be completed (will do shortly) might have some corrections when I read it through.


    Sudan Defence Force - YouTube 1943




    More messing rate info then we get to the really interesting info!

    1/8/44 Paid acting Staff Sergeant to 28/1/45 War Substantive Staff Sergeant

    28/2/45 Ceases to be entitled to pay from army funds.
    Embarked CMF for UK (Duty Posting)
    SOS CMF
    Remains ERE (Extra Regimentally Employed Without Pay and allowances from army funds)
    Many of us have done tours away from our parent unit and are listed ERE we are still on the army payroll. Here another government agency was paying his salary and allowances! Very interesting indeed.
    Authority: WO/112/Misc/3633 AGI (b) of 31/12/42.

    This gave the appearance that he was Staff Sergeant of the RASC on an ERE posting yet he was not on the army payroll. MI6 would of course have had pay arrangements in house as do special forces. Had he been issued currency for overseas a unit pay office would know and may not have been deemed secure.

    Married whilst still ERE
    3/10/45 posted to 2nd Holding Battalion RASC. On return to regimental duties. (Without pay and allowances from army funds) Ex ERE list!

    This could be that the pay office he had been under did not wish his services details to be returned to a unit pay office.

    last occurrence 26/1/46 Struck Off Strength ERE List.

    No definitve discharge date? He must have been released from the Foreign Office.

    I will tidy up - anything you are not sure on please ask.
     
  3. red ling

    red ling Member

    Thank you "Wills" for your help and look forward to the continuation. I remember him saying that he contracted malaria and spent 10 days on a camel with dysentry! which would explain the sick. In my albums I also have photos of Cape town and Kenya, when would he be there? Later I will upload the last 2 pages of his record hoping you may help there also as once he was with ISLD/MI6 there is not much info. I am at the moment reading "The Deceivers" by Thaddeus Holt hoping to discover more. The video was very enlightening, thanks
     
  4. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    ISLD/MI6 - In staff work you come across documents that say much by saying nothing. This was one such, hand picked by the look of things and accelerated promotion. The Inter Service Liaison Department and MI6 would I suggest be closely linked with the people at Sub Area 79. I suspect his records hide as much as they show. Yes gladly look at the remaining documents problem is with people from these departments kept it to themselves.




    http://reed.dur.ac.uk/xtf/view?docId=ead/sad/macphalj.xml;query=Macphail - a lot to search!
     
  5. red ling

    red ling Member

    Hello Wills,
    Have uploaded the 2 pages, but the repro is not very good.
    My father did not talk of his wartime experiences so all the photos I have are a puzzle to be solved as nothing is written on the back. THe only clue to his war service is in his retirement writeup which mentions that he was with MI6 and often visited enemy territory in the Middle East and the Balkans and finished his war service at the Foreign Office in London. He did ask me back in 1970's when I went to Istanbul to go to the Park Hotel and see if the yellow line was there where the Germans and the English both met.
    The photo I think is connected to the Sudan video.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Have Continued at 2 above. I fear that some of the duties he was involved would need a visit to the records from the 'spooks' and even then I am not sure even under release rules all would be published.


    James Gordon Stewart Macphail


    The papers above might throw some light on it all.




    CO3840 Sudan Defence Force wm 35 x 40 screw.JPG
     
  7. red ling

    red ling Member

    Hello Wills
    It seems to be getting more of a puzzle! I don't think these will help either.
    At least I am getting as far as his time with the Sudan Defence Force.
    Have looked at the James Maphail site - seems as though I might find some answers there and as Durham Uni is too far from here to visit I will contact them by email. They may have some details for me.
    Unfortunately most of the Foreign Office paperwork was destroyed at the end of the war so I may have hit a brickwall and as you suggest info may still be locked away at National Archives - again too far for a visit.
    THanks for your continuing help.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    October 1940 in margin -pencil. - he was with 1st Bn Royal Sussex regt with 7th Brigade 4th Indian Division -Tocaro in Western Desert - moved South for overthrow of Italians - Abyssinia for a few months , then he was posted to RASC!


    Still stooging around on the net will see what we come up with! It strikes me as odd when we know he was in theatre why on the medal awards I do not see the Africa Star. Or is it listed on the discharge sheet off screen?




    University Library : The Sudan Archive at Durham - Durham University
     
  9. red ling

    red ling Member

    Hi Wills,
    Another sheet of paper.
    My father was awarded the 1993-1945 Star,Africa Star, Italy Star,Defence Medal and War Medal and they are as they arrived still in the box from RASC.
    I wrote in the column re Royal Sussex and 4th Indians after looking at my fathers photos and reading George Forty's book "The First Victory" where it tells and shows the 4th Indians being moved to Sudan Dec 1940 and being replaced by Australian forces and I thought that my fathers move to RASC was to take him away from infantry to logistics! and would still be attached to the Royal Sussex.
    I have had my fathers records for a number of years and put them to one side when I could not find any info. and bought them out again recently when I got fedup with the family history.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Each of the units of the SDF - had on establishment an RASC Staff Sergeant Clerk : However, your father was always at the higher formation level - HQs. Wondering if the Foreign office financed the SDF. Going to have a look!




    The Sudan Defence Force consisted of a number of battalions, misleadingly styled 'Corps', which had a set area of operations:
    http://www.warestablishments.net/Sudan%20Defence%20Force/Infantry/Infantry%20Battalion%20(Modified)%20July%201945b.pdf
     
  11. red ling

    red ling Member

    Hi Wills,
    Thanks for the info re Equatorial Corps. In the"shoebox" there is a xmas card for dec 1942 which is a regimental card from the Equatorial Corps with a ribbon. Also I have a photo of Rev O Allison dated Nov/Dec 1942 when he was CMS Padre at the Juba Mission in Equatorial Province.
    I think that 170 transit Camp has something to do with Intelligence HQ at Grey Pillars.
    I have a photo dated Feb 1942 Cairo and another of the wedding of Michael Crichton to Alice (Betty )Sims with Brigadier Dudley Clarke and Free French Pilot taken June/July 1942, Cairo.
    This leaves ,Where was my father after he arrived at Port Sudan dec 1940 and arriving in Cairo 1942!!
     
  12. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Durham University again: Oliver Claude Allison.


    Dates of creation: ca.1906-1989
    Extent: 22.5 boxes
    C.M.S. missionary, Equatoria 1938-1947; Assistant Bishop in the Sudan, 1948-1953; Bishop in the Sudan, 1953-1974
    Official papers including correspondence from missionaries, between church and government and concerning such official church matters as the dedication of Khartoum Cathedral, relief aid to refugees in southern Sudan and divisions within the diocese of Khartoum; church newsletters 1938-89; papers re the Sudan Church Association and Unity High School; papers relating to political affairs, particularly the north/south situation; articles and speeches; historical material, chiefly correspondence of Allison's predecessor, Bishop Gwynne; 280 postcards, 836 photographs and 1,768 slides covering O.A.'s service in the Sudan, both north and south; 15 cinefilms from the 1940s with VHS copies, most shot in and around Juba, with some scenes from Kenya and Uganda; 18 audio cassettes mostly of church services in southern Sudan, 1960s and 1970s; 4 maps; miscellanea; museum objects; newspaper cuttings and press releases; printed material.
    Presented by Allison, 1982-1984, & by his brother Rev. G. Allison, 1990-1992
    Catalogue Oliver Claude Allison



    Allison, O.C., Travelling light: Bishop Oliver Allison of the Sudan remembers (Bexhill-on-Sea, 1983)


    Dudley Clarke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Mixing with Dudley Wrangel Clark - this guy is from the top of the tree! See SAS and US Rangers!

    Lt. Col. Michael Henry Crichton, OBE; High Sheriff of Fermanagh (1950); b 18 Apr 1907; dsp. 16 Apr 1970; educ: Eton; Lt. Col., Royal Horse Guards; served in WWII.
    =(1 July 1942) Alice Elizabeth "Betty" Sims; d. 2 June 2002; dau of R. Sims, of Wabash, Indiana; her parents were teachers; met Michael when when both were serving in Cairo in WWII


    The above is the correct 'Crichton' It would appear that all administrative documents were handed to Durham University - come up with a 'personality' and the documents, photos, and filing system is in the archives of DU.
     
  13. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  14. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Red Ling-
    The move to the Sudan by 4th Indian was just as O'Conner was setting up for the battle of Beda Fomm - which shocked O'Connor then after that battle - when it was possible to carry on to Tripoli he learned that the arriving New Zealanders and the Australians were scheduled for Greece - then Rommel arrived !

    Cheers
     
  15. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    So far in short: With 1st Bn Royal Sussex regt with 7th Brigade 4th Indian Division -Tocaro in Western Desert - moved South for overthrow of Italians - Abyssinia for a few months , then he was posted (compulsorily) to RASC.Trade Tested as Clerk Class C- B3. No mention on Part II orders listing a clerks course! Tested for German (oral and written plus French Oral) Accelerated promotion to WS -Staff Sergeant then off to a succession of HQ Sudan Units until GHQ Sudan. There are areas to fill in - especially as he was not on the army payroll - probably foreign office or MI6/MI9. I think the way into this is the comprehensive archives held by Durham University. Enjoying this one so will keep hunting!
     
  16. red ling

    red ling Member

    Here is the photo of the wedding.
    Yes, you have the correct "Crichton" as I was confused with "Crichton-Stuart Scots Guuards who also was with the LRDG.
    At the time of June 42 there appears to be a "Flap" at Grey Pillars in Cairo as Rommel was on his way and many papers were destroyed and some were sent to Jerusalem and others to Aswan. I am wondering if my father went with the papers to Aswan as there are photo (in my albums) of him in Luxor, Kitcheners Island in the Nile and Aswan. The photos I thought were of the Nile I think are of the White Nile in Sudan
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Yes sorry about the Crichton Stuart line I picked a wrong un! I revisited and the spare brain cell spotted it was a wrong line. Your father would certainly have been responsible for all staff and orderly room material - between the Adjutant and the chief clerk they would have been the responsible authority. Will keep ferreting around see what pops up.
     
  18. red ling

    red ling Member

    Hello Tom
    Enjoyed your page at BBC
    Here is a photo of my father and 2 friends outside the Vatican Feb 1945
     

    Attached Files:

  19. red ling

    red ling Member

    Have uploaded extracts from "The Deceivers" by Thaddeus Holt which will give the timeline of my fathers service. I have photos dated Salonika and Italy 1945
     

    Attached Files:

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