Help with Great Grandfathers war records

Good morning,
I am looking for help with understanding my great grandfathers war records.

As well as these I have a liberation of Norway award from 1944

please see attached photos.

 

Kevin,

Welcome aboard. A pity the images are not horizontal, time later to change that.

Could you please add his full name, Date of Birth and Service Number? It will help others to help you. Preferably in the title, which you can edit (bottom left button) and select edit title. That can affect how much attention is given.

Just curious when did you apply for them? Sometimes new members have records from an old application.

This will help with abbreviations: WW2 Abbreviations and Acronyms | Researching the Lives and Records of WW2 Soldiers

 

Hi I can’t seem to find the edit title button, but on the first image it has all those details name, DOB and service number.
I got the records a few years ago now as no one was interested or bothered to find out what he had done, just family stories, but I wanted to know some facts.

 

Hi Kevin,

Interesting later service, transferred to Army Air Corps then transferred to 1 SAS wef 1 Feb 1944. A few 'trips' to North West Europe (NWE), culminating in Norway.

If you can, I'd amend the title of your post to include SAS, might get a few more interested readers then.

Good luck going forward.

Best.
John

 

Hi,

Thanks for sharing the service papers.

Members with knowledge of Special Forces such as Skip and JimHerriot may be able to clarify whether your ggf performed an active rather than a support role in 1st SAS in 1944/45.

He was a 33 year old civilian lorry driver conscripted to RASC in October 1941 but quickly returned to civilian life under Class W reserve rules - possessing skills of more use in civil employment than military service.

He remains in civil employment for 18 months - being transferred to General Service Corps on paper in summer 1942 - before being recalled to military service (the manpower pool of recruits was pretty well exhausted by summer 1943 with 18 year olds being called up). He is quickly redirected from Number 26 Primary Training Centre at Northampton in to RASC.

It appears that he is transferred to 1st SAS Regiment in February 1944 at which time I understand plans were afoot to deploy SAS “en masse” during the Normandy invasion - disputed by Bill Stirling then OIC 1st SAS leading to him resigning his commission.

SAS came under command of Army Air Corps from 1st April 1944 (SAS adopted Red Beret) and were ultimately not deployed en masse during the Normandy invasion but some small “detachments” were involved in various disruption operations behind enemy lines in France in summer 1944.

Your ggf appears to have had 2 1944 deployments to North West Europe - for a few days from late August - and then from early September 1944 to November 1944. He redeploys to NWE from April 1945 to May 1945 before returning to U.K. for a quick turnaround for deployment to Norway to disarm the surrendered German forces there. All personnel there received a certificate of thanks from the King Of Norway.

He returns to U.K. in August 1945 and has various “holding” postings pending his demobilisation is summer 1946.

He doesn’t appear to have had any specialist training - such as Parachute Training - after he was posted to SAS so as a by then 37 year old man he may have been employed in a support role - but my knowledge is limited and I would defer to the opinion of the more knowledgeable members mentioned above.

Steve

 

Thanks Steve for that, helps tie up what the postings mean…much appreciated

 

Hello Kevin.

Welcome, and thank you for sharing the documents of your departed great-grandfather.

I had a look at your images into the wee small hours, and very much concur with the work and findings that forum member "Tullybrone" (Steve) has posted above.

As your great-grandfather was a driver he would have been very much wanted at the time he joined 1st SAS in Scotland (1st February 1944). I'll post up the 1st SAS timeline for this period for you shortly and it will, if nothing else, show you what your great-grandfather would have been in the midst of given the re-establishment of 1st SAS as a Regiment from it's prior but relitively brief incarnation as the Special Raiding Squadron.

Given your great-grandfather's driver skillset, and his age, he may still have received a basic introduction/instruction into SAS modus operandi, weapons and tactics pursuant to a driver's role within the SAS during his six months in Scotland/UK prior to his first deployment to Europe on 25th August (likely to one of two squadrons, A or C) as a driver (replacement or otherwise).

Operations to be looked into re your great-grandfather's 25th August to 2nd September are for C Squadron; Kipling: And for A Squadron; the tail end of Houndsworth.

There will be other possibilities too operation wise but that will require more digging on my part, the above being from memory (which may of course be wrong - couldn't find the paperwork I needed last night, and it's still to be found!).

On the memory side. And old bloke conjecture only. Circumstantial, and no more.
The 25th August date from your great-grandfather's record leapt out at me.

Derek Harrison (an officer in C Squadron on Kipling) saw the loss (killed in action) of his driver Lance Corporal James Hall on 23rd August. Your great-grandfather's "emplaned" for NW Europe date of 25th August did make me wonder if he was ordered out to Derek Harrison's C Squadron section as a replacement.

More digging to be done. I must dig out "These Men are Dangerous" today (a job, fingers crossed, for after hospital appointment this morning )

Keep looking in the meantime Kevin, with the help of the good folks here, we'll try to nail down the "A Squadron"? "C Squadron"? (or other!) side of things. An answer for certain on that would narrow the field a lot.

Kind regards, always remember, never forget,

Jim.

 

Hi Jim, thanks for the details.
I will ask some family members for other details if possible as most of them have passed now.
Like I said there were stories of him, but not sure how true.

 

Morning,

Thanks for your ever helpful insights Jim.

Hope that today’s hospital appointment goes well.

Best wishes

Steve

 

Thank you Kevin.

And in the meantime, as referred to above, pertinent timeline, with all thanks to and courtesy of SAS Roll of Honour.



Also Kevin, you may at sometime wish to contact The Regimental Association. They are not a research facility, but are very big on remembrance.

If you did choose to write to them (that is the route of contact, see address below) at sometime, brief question (s) along the lines of "please, if possible, would you tell me which Squadron my late great-grandfather served in in 1944 - 1945?"

Provide his name and number and dates with SAS, that's all. And if you are happy to offer a donation to the association. It may not help in gaining an answer, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

Cheers Steve.

Full Bunyan mode today, 'tis but one small step

Kind regards, and again thank you, always,

Jim.

 

Good morning Kevin.

Not forgotten!

Having found the reading copy a couple of nights ago it has since been re-read in entirety (experience over the years has taught me that you cannot rely on an index, or a content list when it comes to names of people, or places. You just have to read the whole book to be certain).

And as a result of said reading there is no mention of your great-grandfather by name in Derek Harrison's work. I hope however that you will gain something of your great-grandfather's first experiences with 1st SAS by reading the attached. We know your great-grandfather was there from his service record that you kindly shared, and even though a qualified and experienced driver first and foremost I am certain he would not have passed his six months plus before deployment to europe kicking his heels in Scotland. It is not the SAS way.

Most importantly, to start, one sentence from what follows in full. Derek Harrison knew what he was writing about. Your great-grandfather was there, in amongst it; It applies to him.



Always remember, never forget,

Jim.

 

Hi Jim

many thanks I will read those pages at some point today, and I am looking to get a copy of that book in the near future.
I have also written to the SAS regimental association and they have passed the details on to a researcher.
If I indeed find out what unit he was attached to I post the finding on here.

really appreciate your help and the others

 

That's the stuff Kevin; well done you! And thank you, in advance, for being open to sharing what may be found (and should your decision on that change in the future that will be fine too, as they will always be your decisions Kevin, and no-one else's).

It might seem like small steps but they can turn into big strides in the blink of an eye.

Kind regards, good luck with your research, always,

Jim.

 

Hi Jim

I got some replies back from the association and he was involved in operations Howard and Doomsday

 

I expect you’ve found this about Operation Howard -

Operation Howard - Wikipedia

Operation Doomsday was the code name for the British forces sent to Norway in mid May 1945 to disarm the German occupation troops. I don’t believe there were any incidents there and the operation was carried out peacefully.

 

That's excellent news Kevin.

I am so very pleased for you; receiving a little more information from The Association regarding your great-grandfather can only be a good thing I hope.

Well done you for being proactive.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.