Help with Cassino photo

Discussion in 'Italy' started by Charley Fortnum, Jan 2, 2016.

  1. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Magnifying glass?
     
  2. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    New enquiry.

    Does anybody know where I can get a high-quality copy of this image?

    It's from After The Battle Magazine, Number 13: Cassino Battlefield Tour (1976).

    SmartSelect_20190828-153847_ReadEra.jpg

    It's titled under the German name (Galgenberg) instead of Hangman's Hill and credited to the Bundesarchiv, but I have no experience with this source whatsoever and can't seem to find a copy online.

    This is the nearest I can find at the Bundesarchiv picture site. Is it a crop of the same image, or a shot from the same session? (edit: it's different)

    SmartSelect_20190828-155230_Chrome.jpg

    Source:
    Bundesarchiv - Picture database: Picture archive - Detailview

    Obviously I can contact them, but inevitably they'll charge me a kidney for a scan if they have it.

    Ideas?
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
  3. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    James.

    I do not but it is the first contemporary photo of Hangman’s Hill that I have ever seen.

    Thank you.

    Frank
     
  4. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    I was surprised to find it, doubly so as I'd read the magazine once (I have a digital scan of the whole thing if you don't) and didn't notice it.

    The reason I'd like to find an original is to see how much more detail we can see of the feature. The few high-res Cassino images I have are outstanding compared with the low-res print copies that have been floating around since the war.

    Not having been there, I've always been curious as to how the combined force of Gurkhas and Essex men managed to stay in position and out of direct fire. I don't have the figures to hand, but although both contingents had suffered badly getting there, wounded men far outweighed the dead and there was a surprising number of soldiers to conceal. Yes, they would have quickly 'dug in' (or constructed sangars if the ground was as rocky as elsewhere), but with the enemy enjoying the elevation of higher ground wouldn't they have been inadequate? I know a fearsome amount of smoke was laid down to protect them (which brought its own problems), but it still surprises me. The feature just doesn't look that big.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  5. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    James.

    I think that they were positioned behind the pylon bit. It is very much in dead ground from the monastery itself. The ‘bowl’ in front of the pylon bit is in full view of the monastery.

    The 1/9 GR Memorial is very much in dead ground and looks down on the town. I cannot be certain why it was positioned there but it could well have been placed there because that is where C Coy 1/9 GR were on the ground.

    Regards

    Frank
     
  6. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    And with a bit of a colour tweaking, can I get a second opinion?

    Is this (from the rear sangar) the same man or not--the rank and company match, but I can't convince myself completely (images 1944 and 1942 respectively)

    Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 02.15.07.png
    Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 02.15.27.png
     
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  7. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    James,

    hope you don't mind that I've cropped your photos? In my eyes i think you are correct? Correction: unless its my shoddy eyesight, you have nailed it. I would be surprised if anyone thinks anything differently? I don't have, or know of the technology to be able to show the two faces side- by- side? Any-body? First attempt.

    Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 02.15.07.png Screenshot 2020-06-06 at 02.15.27.png

    Regards,
    Stu. Edit: well done.
     
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  8. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Cheers.

    The nose and brow ridge are a pretty good match. I have (somewhere) the email address for this man's son. I just don't want to waste his time until I'm fairly certain.
     
  9. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Does this help?
    Photo.jpg
     
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  10. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    You will not waste his time. I once came across ( two photos) of my Grandfather in a book on the Middlesex Regiment. The author was convinced that it was not him. Once I had blown them up & showed them to my Mum, she said that it was him. The second photo is not in the family collection. I've yet to put it in a frame along with the rest.

    I had looked at the second photo for many a year before showing my Mum. If she takes her bins off, she is blind as a bat!;) I don't want to state the obvious about asking.

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
  11. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Tony,

    it does in my eyes! Gives us a clue to the tech..Whats it called? Is it the same chap in your opinion?

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
  12. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Certainly some similarities but not sure I could be 100%
    Photo3.jpg

    ps: Corel PaintShop Pro
     
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  13. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Excellent work, but you've sown more seeds of doubt in my mind now!
     
  14. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    I think it is him.

    F
     
  15. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    James,

    Its taken a while to find the full caption of the photo below. Has you do.. I came across it by chance..

    httpss//images.app.goo.gl/e4tAMjhrDpvBd2w8. May need to Edit this post to show it in full? One will.Email sent to yourself.

    Stu.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  16. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    That link is broken, mate.
     
  17. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    This will sound funny.. I can enlarge the the image on my phone, but can't on my laptop.:wacko: Don't ask?

    Here is what the caption reads;

    GUARDS' ENCAMPMENT ON THE 5TH ARMY FRONT.

    A view of the inhospitable area on the main 5th Army Front where British soldiers of the Guards regiment are encamped..( Which regiment would be help-full, or which Guards Brigade?) They are making preparations for moving up to the battle-front, some of them cleaning up while others partake of a welcome meal.

    Not helping much..It could be 1 Guards Brigade, 201 Guards Brigade or 24? 201 got disbanded at the end of Dec 43 with the remaining battalions going to 24 Guards who got slapped about at Anzio. 24 did see action at Cassino between 11 May-18 May. I think we may be able to discount 201? Has far has I'm aware, these are the only Guards Brigades that served under the 5th Army in the Italian Campaign.

    Regards,
    Stu
     
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