Whilst recently researching the history of L/Cpl JAR Coulthard, I noticed there are two entries on his history sheet that I don't understand. The first is that on 4/4/40, he was promoted to "appt unpaid R/Cpl" whilst serving with the Field Security Police. My question is what rank is an R/Cpl - was it a rank used by the FSP or was it a slip of the pen by the clerk and should be L/Cpl? The second is on an entry at the bottom of the sheet where his rank changes from L/Cpl to P/L/Cpl. What does the P stand for, is it probationary, paid, permanent or anything else please? History sheet attached below: Thanks, Steve
Steve, I think as an MP he might have been promoted to Acting Unpaid Regimental Corporal. Am I reading the record correctly that he appears to have been transferred to the Intelligence Corps as what appears to be a paid Lance Corporal whilst a POW?
Hi Steve, If you look closely at the 'R' in the record connected with the rank 'R/PL' you can notice that the loop does not have the same weight of stroke as the rest of the letter, so I think you can assume safely that the relevant rank is 'L/Cpl'. I would take the P in the 'P/L/Cpl' to be Paid Lance Corporal. Checking the Unit Diaries may actually clear this up for you, as promotions were listed in the Unit Orders which generally form a part of the Diaries. Not sure about the appearance of the latter as he was a P.o.W. Mark
Field Security Wing (Green Caps), which was separated from the CMP in 1940 to form the Intelligence Corps. FSP -Field Security Police. P - Paid - R/Cpl - I think that is just a flare of the pen and is an L - which would tie in with 'Appt' Unpaid lcpl as until 1961 lance corporal was an appointment and not a rank: ARMY AND AIR FORCE BILL Mr John Profumo Commons — February 2, 1961 Clause 36 depends on an amendment to Queen's Regulations for the Army which we shall make to create the rank of lance-corporal and lance-bombardier. Lance-corporal and lance-bombardier have been..........this was so commanding officers when dealing with lance corporals - disciplinary matters complied with military law - pay reduction etc. Transfer to Intelligence Corp - this looks to be an admin transfer as that is the date of Int Corp formation (15/7/40) by Army Council Instruction 1020/40 - Army Order 112/40. His Corp of Military Police job became an Intelligence Corp responsibility.
Hi One thing to note is that all the entries are not in chronological order. The last two are dated 1940, so he went from unpaid to paid on the same date in April, and I think they are both Lance Corporal, the first one is a running writing L with a bit of a flourish while the others are a capital printed L. He was reported a POW in September, after his promotion. He was transferred to Intelligence in July, also before his capture. regards Robert
Thanks everyone, I understand now. I didn't realise L/Cpl was an appointment and not a promotion. It appears he went into captivity as a member of the FSP and transferred to the Int Corps whilst a POW. Regards Steve
Steve, Just had a look on Forces War Records, and got the following information, which you already have: First Name: J A R Initials: J A R Surname: COULTHARD Rank: Lance Corporal Service: Army Regiment: Intelligence Corps Service: Army Service Number: 5386215 Nationality: British Campaign Medals: 1939-45 War Medal, 1939-45 Star Duty Location: Distinguished Service Gallantry Awards: Mentioned in Despatches, Gazette Info: 5695 Gazette Date: 23/11/1945 On Ancestry the information is: Name:J. A. R. Coulthard Rank:Lance Corporal Army Number:5386215 Regiment:Intelligence Corps POW Number:5202 Camp Type:Stalag Camp Number:XX-A Camp Location:Torun, Poland Record Office:Pioneer Corps and Intelligence Corps Record Office, The Dunholme Manor, Bournemouth Record Office Number:28 Again I am going to suggest you try the War Diary, as it may have mention of why he was 'Mentioned in Despatches' Mark
Steve, Just had a look on Forces War Records, and got the following information, which you already have: On Ancestry the information is: Again I am going to suggest you try the War Diary, as it may have mention of why he was 'Mentioned in Despatches' Mark Hi Mark, Thanks very much to you and everyone else for their input to this. As you might have read in the very long dedicated Antony Coulthard thread, although I found his page in the London Gazette, the citation is not held either in the NAs or by his Nephew and Niece. They do not have his medals either. The award was a posthumous one, after the war and it is believed to have been based on a letter written by my father to MI9 after he was released from Stalag XXA. They escaped together and conducted a lot of intel gathering in Berlin on the way to the Swiss border. The reason I wanted to be sure of his appointments/promotions etc is that I have been invited to give a presentation at the Intelligence Corps HQ on his escape with dad, sad death on the forced march and my subsequent search for his grave. As I will be speaking to Int Corps members, I wanted to be sure of my facts! I have attached the London Gazette page and the Medals/Decorations page from his History Sheet below. It indicates that he was issued the war Medal with emblem which I presume is the oakleaf of his posthumous MiD. It also indicates that his medals were issued to his NoK although these seem to have been mislaid by his family and are not held at the Int Corps museum. The stamp indicates this issue was on 29 July 1948. View attachment 91338 Regards Steve
Steve, Maybe my family thought the Medals were not worth much without the life that they belonged to? People often wear them as proud survivors, but the dead cant do that. I can imagine a relative thinking these are just bits of stamped out alloy. With respect, in a rash moment, one might even be tempted to throw them in the vegetable patch! Just a thought. Barbara
