Hello, I'm trying to piece together the wartime story of my late grandfather, Alfred Alcock. While I have an interest in WWII history, it is far too basic and general to help me gather insights as to his story. What I have found online is as follows: UK, British Army Prisoners of War, 1939-1945 about A. Alcock Name: A. Alcock Rank: Bombardier Army Number: 1547371 Regiment: Royal Artillery POW Number: 253933 Camp Type: Stalag Camp Number: 357 Camp Location: Oerbke, Lower Saxony Record Office: Royal Artillery (Light Anti-Aircraft) Record Office, Ibex House, The Minories, London, EC3 Record Office Number: 6 As with many other POWs (from what I have read here) he never spoke much about his wartime experience. But as far as I can figure out, his story must have looked something like this: - Sent to North Africa (whereabouts?) sometime between July and October 1941 - Part of the Royal Artillery, Light Anti-Aircraft division, possibly 8th Army - Did not fight Rommel (from what he has said?), so would he have fought against the Italians? - Captured ca. Jan 1942 and interred as POW in Sicily (whereabouts?) for abt 20 months. - Transferred to Stalag 357 in Oerbke, Germany ca. Sept 1943. - Returned to England 24th April 1945. It goes without saying that I will try to attain his service record for more details (from the Royal Artillery Record Office?)... but I hope that there are people who will be able to help me interpret the few details I already have at hand? For example, does his rank of bombardier have any significance? He couldn't have seen much action before being captured, and I assume he was a private? Any help, insight or speculation dearly appreciated as there is nobody in the family who has any more detail. Kind thanks, /Darian
Hello Darian, welcome to the forum. I am sure someone will be along to assist you shortly! Best, Steve.
Hi, Service records are obtained from the MOD in Glasgow: Army Personnel Centre - British Army Website Once you know what units he was with you can find out what he was doing from his units war diaries. Cheers Andy
Thanks Steve and Andy And thanks for pointing me in the right direction Andy, I'll get onto that. If I simplify my question from the specifics: If he was fighting in N Africa in late-1941/1942, but "not against Rommel", would that imply the Italians (especially if he was then interred in Sicily)? I've been looking at various WW2 timelines, but have not found many clues for likely engagements. Thanks again for any ideas! Best /Darian 2.
skwanderer some thing a bit off here when your g'father says he never fought Rommel as he had made his entrance from El Ageila in early 1941 and your g'father got there in the july - while it is true that much of Rommels Army was made of a few Italian Divisions they both worked in conjunction so there a few battles before he was captured in Jan '42 - he might have been involved in "Battleaxe" but I suspect that he was rounded up after " Crusader " and possibly on the retreat to Gazala and beyond back to El Alamein in the July '42. Most POW's had their first landing in Sicily- no matter which army captured them - then transferred to Germany eventually - his records will spell it all out. Cheers
Hi Darian With Bombardier, it is the artillery rank equivalent to a Corporal in the army, ie 2 stripes. So he was a bit above a Private As for him not fighting Rommel, well the Germans were there in 1942, see North African Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia in fact they were there from mid 41 (Rommel arrived on February 12, 1941). So maybe he fought against an Italian regiment when he was captured by them. regards Robert
Darian Have a look at this link to understand how the German and Italian Divisions were intermingled in Battle - this one is of the October '42 El Alamein but they all followed pretty much the same pattern.. Cheers BBC - History - World Wars: Animated Map: The Battle of El Alamein
Thanks all - what a friendly and helpful group you all are on this forum ;-) And thanks for the links... I see how I really need to find his regiment to uncover any details. However, reading the bold text: Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Personnel | Service Records | Making a Request for Information held on the Personnel Records of Deceased Service Personnel it would seem that I need to go through my Aunt in order to get all the details of his service (or, sorry if this sounds silly - could I qualify as next of kin as his grandchild?). You're right, I am a bit puzzled by the assertion that he didn't fight Rommel. Though an explanation is that the statement was taken out of context, and perhaps he simply meant that he was up against an Italian division/regiment at the time of his capture as suggested. But would this tend to assume that he hadn't seen much action before his capture (if he only came up against Italian divisions/regiments)? Further to this, what would be entailed to go from the rank of private to corporal/bombardier? That is, might it give a clue to how long he had been fighting - or were casualties so high that it happened fairly quickly anyway? Again, thank you for sharing your time and knowledge! Best /Darian
Darian The lowest rank in the Royal Artillery is Gunner (abbreviated to Gnr), this is equivalent to an infantry private. We then have Lance Bombardier (L/Bdr) and Bombardier (Bdr), the equivalents of Lance Corporal and Corporal. After this the rank designations are the same as in the infantry. They are never called corporal/bombardier. Peter
Darian Many questions - understandable if you have no knowledge of the military - however - he was in an AA ( anti aircraft) unit - they were usually a mile or so behind the Infantry - Tanks - Engineers - who were doing the actual fighting -so for him to be captured meant that the fighting troops in front of him were overwhelmed - as he was eventually - didn't really matter what their Nationality was - he was captured and by no means alone I would imagine. There has grown since that conflict the notion that all Italians were poor fighters - this is not so as their Artillery was reputed to be equally as good as ours at some points- nevertheless - when a company of 150 men all armed with guns surround your five man AA post- if you do something really stupid - you will die - so the sensible thing to do is surrender !-then try to escape .....so we mustn't dwell on assumptions but wait for the facts of his service record.....this will give the date of his capture and the activity and possibly place- then we can complete the history.. Cheers
Thank you Peter and Tom for this additional info... Though I must await the details from his service record, it is very insightful to be able to understand the type of scenario he faced. A final question for now if I may: How quickly did soldiers generally progress from gunner to lance bombardier to bombardier? He can't have been in action for very long before being captured, and I wonder if this is perhaps a hint of a very high casualty rate (thus quick promotion) during his time? Or perhaps this is normally a quick jump for most soldiers anyway - or even an automatic rank awarded to soldiers who spent a long time as POW's? Again, thanks for all the help - I appreciate those who are sharing their time & knowledge with me! Best /Darian
How quickly did soldiers generally progress from gunner to lance bombardier to bombardier? ... perhaps this is normally a quick jump for most soldiers anyway - or even an automatic rank awarded to soldiers who spent a long time as POW's? If most gunners automatically got to be bombardiers the RA would be awash with bombardiers. It usually is, or was in my day, a long route to bombardier, starting with 'acting unpaid lance-bombardier', lance-bombardier, acting unpaid bombardier, then finally paid bombardier, always on merit. There was nothing automatic about it no matter how long you served in the RA and many lance-bombardiers never got any higher. Hope this helps.
Darian - In my own case - I managed to escape promotion for the whole five years of my service- just lucky I guess... Cheers
(edit note below) Thanks Tom and Peter for the clarification - but it surprises me somewhat. He never insinuated being anything other than a simple soldier (if you appreciate the context in which I mean that, all due respect to all who served). As far as I know, he didn't enlist until 1941 (could be mistaken), and certainly didn't serve any campaigns before N Africa. And again, from what we know, he wasn't in action for more than a few months before being caught. Could the rank of Bombardier be a misprint, or have a different context in the record source I quoted? Can anyone explain what is entailed to in rank promotion, or point me to a description of what was involved for a bombardier? Thanks again. /D Edit: sorry for a couple of inaccuracies (a ditzy relative relating parts of a story and missing the whole)... he did enlist in 1939 and apparently did serve "somewhere" in Europe beforehand... so his rank of bombardier is not necessarily unusual... (*sigh*) And he had also said that he was glad he was caught by the Germans and not by the Italians - though he was involved fighting the Italians and not the Germans. I'm now told that he might have been POW on a boat off the coast of Sicily. Does this say anything?
Dear Skwanderer, Have you considered requesting the POW records held by the International Red Cross Committee (ICRC) based in Geneva? I have previously assisted relatives of some former WW2 POWs to contact the Red Cross. The ICRC provided a lot of information to the family about the POW - such as where and how he was taken prisoner, the dates the POW had been visited by the Red cross, some letters and reports etc. If there is a 'Next of Kin' of your Grandfather still living (i.e. wife, sibling, child) the ICRC will provide the information free of charge. (This was the situation with the people I assisted to make the enquiry). As a grandchild I gather the ICRC would regard this as a 'Next of Kin', So, if you make the request for yourself, then this would be free. For someone who is not a 'Next of Kin' there is a research fee (currently 100 Swiss Francs). You can submit the request online, by going to this page on the ICRC website: ICRC Archives Good luck
That's fabulous ritsonvaljos, thanks for the tip and link! EDIT: application sent! Response time: 6-12 months :-/
Hi Darian, The reason why I am contacting you, is to try and establish whether there is a link between my Alcock family and yours. My great great grandad had 21 children so it may be possible. I have done a bit of research on my lineage tracing it back to 1773 however i am now looking to widen the family tree and find out where some of the Alcock's have ended up. I am also a Bdr in the Royal Artillery so if you have any questions on the army please feel free to get in touch. My email is xx
Hi Darian, The reason why I am contacting you, is to try and establish whether there is a link between my Alcock family and yours. My great great grandad had 21 children so it may be possible. I have done a bit of research on my lineage tracing it back to 1773 however i am now looking to widen the family tree and find out where some of the Alcock's have ended up. I am also a Bdr in the Royal Artillery so if you have any questions on the army please feel free to get in touch. My email is xx Hello Ben, Is there any nexus between the name 'Alcock' and 21 children? Power to your great great granddad. My sympathies to your great great grandma! Best, Steve.
