Help needed with uniform identification please

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by jadzia, Nov 1, 2010.

  1. jadzia

    jadzia Junior Member

    Firstly I'd like to say hello to all members...i'm new to this site so hopefully i've put this post in the right place.

    I put this post on the great war forum but as it is to do with WW2 someone suggested I may get even more results here.

    I have attached a photograph of my Great Uncle Herbert. Can anyone please help identify his uniform, regiment or rank ect?

    I am really struggling to find any information on him other than the following: His name is Herbert William Barratt he was born on 14/3/1913 in Thorpe Arnold, Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire and he died on 26/1/1977. I have no idea of any of his military background as unless i'm missing something I cannot find any records (I also have photographs of three more of Herberts brothers in different uniforms that I have no idea about).
    I thought maybe if I could find out something about his uniform it would hopefully give me pointers of where to look for more information.

    A very helpful member from the GWF posted the following reply:
    He is 7th Armoured Division, the Desert Rats, as indicated by the desert jerboa on his top left arm. It's a red rat with a white outline on a black square. From his uniform it looks like the Normandy (D-Day) Campaign of WW2, not WW1. Underneath the rat are 3 horizontal strips, which might indicate his brigade (a sub-formation of a division, one of 3) and there also appear to be some stripes, although I cannot tell if 2 (Corporal) or 3 (Sergeant). Field Marshal Montgomery brought 7th Armd Div back from North Africa (where they earned their fame), specifically to fight in the D-Day campaign. They had heavy casualties, especially during an offensive in late 1944, Operation Goodwood. He appears to be wearing war medal ribbons which would date the photo to late 1945, or 46.

    Is there anything that anyone here can add please about where I could look to find out more information?

    Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you

    Vanessa
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hello - The easiest thing to do to answer all your questions regarding units, rank and medals is to apply for his service records from the MoD.
     
  3. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Hi Vanessa and welcome to WW2Talk.
    As Andy (Drew5233) has advised, the best thing is to apply for your Geat Uncle's service record, see this link:
    service records army
    Best of luck with your research and keep us posted.

    Mike
     
  4. jadzia

    jadzia Junior Member

    Hi Vanessa and welcome to WW2Talk.
    As Andy (Drew5233) has advised, the best thing is to apply for your Geat Uncle's service record, see this link:
    service records army
    Best of luck with your research and keep us posted.

    Mike

    Hi Andy & Mike,

    Thank you for your replies...I have just followed the link you very kindly provided but I don't think I can do it that way as on the site it says 'Information from the personal record of a deceased Ex-serviceman/woman can be released only with the consent of the official Next of Kin'. My problem is I do not have contact with my great uncles next of kin. I believe there was a falling out in the family before my father was born and so I have never met them. I suppose I could write to them to ask them about my great uncle but I am a little worried it may upset them. I will have to give it some more thought. Many thanks

    Vanessa
     
  5. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Vanessa, as stated on the service records site I would suggest either sending a letter to:

    Army Personnel Centre,
    Historical Disclosures,
    Mail Point 555,
    Kentigern House,
    65 Brown Street,
    Glasgow,
    G2 8EX

    Or phoning them on 0800 1692277 if you are UK based. If not UK based the phone number should be the UK code and omit the first 0.

    Mike
     
  6. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Vanessa-
    Number of things here that you might want to have look at -his unifrom was not specific to Normandy - that was standard isssue at the back end of '45 with the Tie and his medals which look like the 39/45 Star - Africa Star and either Italy or France and Germany Star - before the Defence and War(Victory) Medals were issued.

    The upright Jerboa in Red with white tracings on Black is however specific to Normandy as the GOC had it changed when they came back from Italy.....

    The three single stripes I would assume to be complete red and 2" x 1/4" which indicates Infantry.....the main Infantry bde for 7th armoured was the 131st Queens consisting of 1/5 - 1/6 and 1/7 Queens battalions.....so since he is wearing three - or junior battalion - he was in 1/7th battalion - looks like he was a corporal

    So best bet is to get hold of their War diary and see what he was up to while he was over there..and there ... and there...might find his service number and then you stand a better chance of conning Glasgow into getting his service records
    but don't tell them I said that ...
    Cheers
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Vanessa
    here is a good wiki link to the brigade that your uncle served in from the time they landed in Egypt with the 44th Division until Monty broke them up after El Alamein - but knew a good Infantry brigade when he saw one - so he incorporated them with 7th Armoured .... in October '42 until December '44-
    Cheers

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/131st_Infantry_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)
     
  8. jadzia

    jadzia Junior Member

    Vanessa-
    Number of things here that you might want to have look at -his unifrom was not specific to Normandy - that was standard isssue at the back end of '45 with the Tie and his medals which look like the 39/45 Star - Africa Star and either Italy or France and Germany Star - before the Defence and War(Victory) Medals were issued.

    The upright Jerboa in Red with white tracings on Black is however specific to Normandy as the GOC had it changed when they came back from Italy.....

    The three single stripes I would assume to be complete red and 2" x 1/4" which indicates Infantry.....the main Infantry bde for 7th armoured was the 131st Queens consisting of 1/5 - 1/6 and 1/7 Queens battalions.....so since he is wearing three - or junior battalion - he was in 1/7th battalion - looks like he was a corporal

    So best bet is to get hold of their War diary and see what he was up to while he was over there..and there ... and there...might find his service number and then you stand a better chance of conning Glasgow into getting his service records
    but don't tell them I said that ...
    Cheers

    Tom,

    WOW You really know your stuff. That's fantastic....thank you so much. It will definately give me something to get my teeth into.

    Many thanks to all who are helping me I really appreciate it.

    Vanessa
     
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Vanessa - you are more than welcome - that is what we are here for- all the clues were there....I missed your PM by the way - pushed the wrong button again
    Cheers -
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    All the info you need to apply for service records from the MoD below:

    Army Personnel Centre - British Army Website

    The three cloth stripes below the formation badge signify he was in the junior brigade of the three brigades within the div. There is no clue to his battalion of regiment.

    Service records are the way forward.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  11. Pete Keane

    Pete Keane Senior Member

    Tom

    Fascinating stuff, clues well read.

    Be interesting to see what his service history does say!

    Pete
     
  12. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Pete - thank you for that compliment as you say the clues were all there - the main lorried Infantry with 7th Armoured from after El Alamein was the 131st - the Queens and thus the junior battalion was the 1/7th signified by the three Infantry stripes.Both they and 1/6 had many casualties and were then in December '44 dispersed into 50th Division as they - according to Monty's word - "had suffered enough" and were sent off to Norway prior to ending up in the Uk as a training unit.The 1/7th were replaced by the 2nd Devons - and so my advice to Vanessa was predicated on the fact that Glasgow would be reluctent to search but the Battalion diaries might yield more information while the records office were making up their minds -
    Cheers
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew -
    My name is Thomas -yours is Andy I believe - so do have some faith ...

    the main lorried infantry bde as of the end of the October '42 battle of El Alamein was the 131st Queens - ex 44th Division - the Queens then went forward with 7th Armoured to Triploi - Mareth - Enfidaville - Tunis - Naples -then back to the Uk for D Day and beyond - so it's a fair bet that this chap was in 1/7th Queens......Vanessa is having trouble with the next of kin - as she admits - so try the Battalion diaries - can't hurt....
    Cheers
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Sorry Tom I was just quoting from British Army Uniforms and Insignia of World War Two by Brian L. Davis.

    A fair bet as you say could be an expensive trip to the national archives to get a copy of a battalions war diary that has no connection to the man being researched hence why I said get a copy of his service records first before 'betting' on units, I find hard facts work far better for me as I have learnt myself from personal experience that educated guess end up wasting lots of man hours and more importantly money.

    If Vanessa can't find a next of kin closer than she is then she is the next of kin for ordering purposes and if he has been dead for 20 years you don't need a next of kins permission anyway and you don't need a service number either to order service records if you have a date of birth.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  15. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew - fine I can accept that rationale - BUT - the man has been dead for some 33 years- so why didn't you tell her that she can be next of kin after 20 years ?

    That gives her instant access to Glasgow records
    Cheers
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hi Tom,

    All the info is in the link I posted :)
     
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  17. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew - my apologies inasmuch as I did note that you do mention the 20 year exception in your posting #14 - - my point though is that the link in which you claim to have outlined this 20 year exception in either your postings # 2 and #10 - I just cannot find so - I might be a bit thick to-day.....

    Incidently when I applied for my regiments war diary - from Bovington - all it cost me was an e-mail to them - and a three weeks waiting time .....must be different for Infantry !
    Cheers
     
  18. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    are you sure it's the Jerboa of 7th Armd?
    Looks like 46th Div's oak tree to me.
    ‘A Sherwood Forest Oak set on a black square. The tree had a brown trunk and green foliage and was edged with a narrow white border. The Oak being an emblem of strength and reliability.’


    46th Division Units and Structure

    there are 3 stripes indicating the 'third' brigade of a divsion.
    7th armd only had 2.

    2/5th Leicesters were in 139 bde , the 'third' brigade of 46 Div.
    as he from Leicestershire I wondered if he was with them, though that doesn't relaly mean he did.
     

    Attached Files:

    jadzia likes this.
  19. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Owen -
    nice try - BUT and However - the 46th Division were in Italy from the landing at Salerno on 9th September '43 - until the end when they moved into Austria around the Graz area in around the 10th May '45 - so pretty tough to be at Goodwood in France when they were resting after Trasimeno and getting ready for the Gothic line
    Cheers
     
  20. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

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