Help!!! Needed Searching The Archives for 20 ATk Regt, RA

OK I thought I'd put together a little guide on how to find a particular British Army war diary at the National Archives.

1. The vital piece of information you need to know is what theatre the unit was in at a particular time or under whose command. The war diaries are arranged by command, following the Order of Battle.

For example if you were searching for the war diary of the 225 Field Company RE in May 1940, you need to search the index for the British Expeditionary Force as they were at Dunkirk at the time.

Here is the list of commands with their associated TNA reference series number:War Office Directorates - WO 165

Home Forces - WO 166

British Expeditionary Force - WO 167

North-West Expeditionary Force - WO 168

Middle East Forces - WO 169

Central Mediterranean Forces - WO 170

North-West Europe - WO 171

South-East Asia Command - WO 172

West Africa Forces - WO 173

Madagascar - WO 174

British North Africa Forces - WO 175

Various smaller theatres - WO 176

Medical services - WO 177

Military Missions - WO 178

Dominion Forces WO 179

GHQ Liaison Regiment* - WO 215

Special Services - WO 218

Ships Signals Sections* - WO 257

Royal Marine Commandos - DEFE 2

* These series include associated papers

For the 225 Field Company RE war diary for May 1940, you need to search in WO 167 – British Expeditionary Force.

2. So visit TNA online catalogue here:
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3. In the box for “Department or Series Code” enter the reference series number you found above, e.g. WO 167

4. In the box for “Word or Phrase” you can try a number of things. If you tried “225 Field Company” you’re not going to find anything because abbreviations are used in the index.

In this particular case I’d try the search phrase “225”.

If the unit/company number is low then try something like “Royal Engineers” to find the subdivision in the listing and then use the “Browse from here” button to scan through the entries from the start of that subdivision, as all the Royal Engineer units will be grouped together. The same for Royal Artillery, etc.

5. Hit the search button!

In this example the reference returned for the 225 Fd. Coy. is WO 167/979. That is the file reference number to use to order the document at Kew. Detecting your browser settings

Hope this helps?

Lee

 

Psywar/Owen

Thanks for your reply, Yes Owen Raymond was enlisted to the end of the war.

Apologies for the delay in replying my daughter spilt a cup of tea over the keyboard!!!!!!

 

Right here we go........

I've borrowed the papers from my father, as my brother 'Finbar Saunders' has highlighted in another thread, according to the cwg and Edwins service record he was a member of the 20th AT reg, on studying his service papers he was admitted to the 14TH feild dressing station on the 19TH sept 44' he died on the 20TH sept 44' on his papers it states that he was '21ST AT regt'....??? was it normal for them to move regiments during the war? Finbar has found out that the 14TH fds was part of the 21st AT

Also i'll be cheeky and ask does anyone know the reference for the 21ST AT. Also how do i attach images i have pictures of Edwins records, our trip to belgium and pictures of the man himself to stick on.

 

Hello again,

As i said in a previous post on another thread, we now think that although Edwin was recorded as part of the 20TH AT reg't on his service record his death was recorded as being part of the 21ST AT, we are hopefully going to the National Archives in the next few months to read the war diaries and we are going to read both the 20TH and the 21st to try and establish were exactly Edwin was. Can anyone advise ... can we expect to find specific details recorded regarding Edwins death within the diary for that day...??

Thanks

GAZ

 

If you can post some scans of the service record it will help us to figure it out.

As AT units were fairly small there is every chance his death will be mentioned, even if it is indirectly.

 

Hello again,

As i said in a previous post on another thread, we now think that although Edwin was recorded as part of the 20TH AT reg't on his service record his death was recorded as being part of the 21ST AT, we are hopefully going to the National Archives in the next few months to read the war diaries and we are going to read both the 20TH and the 21st to try and establish were exactly Edwin was. Can anyone advise ... can we expect to find specific details recorded regarding Edwins death within the diary for that day...??

Thanks

GAZ

Unless he was an officer, it is unlikely that he'll be mentioned by name in the War Diary. For example a relative of mine killed in WWI, on that day the diary records that 10 O/Rs (other ranks) killed by shelling. Coupled with the fact he doesn't have a known grave, it is fairly obvious how he went. At least it would have been quick. So don't expect too much detail.

Something else worth trying is searching the Imperial War Museum online collection for personal diaries and other documents from members of his regiment. Imperial War Museum Collections Online Database

Lee

 

OK not much in the IWM Collection but did find this photo:



Caption: "Gunners of 20th Anti-Tank Regiment, 3rd Infantry Division, haul a 2-pdr anti-tank gun up a steep slope during training at Verwood in Dorset, 22 March 1941. "

 

And this:

[IWM interview]
Catalogue Number: 27178

Production Date: 13/Aug/2004
Maker: Harris, Michael Guy
Production Company: IWM

British officer served with 20th Anti-Tank Regt, Royal Artillery in GB and North West Europe, 1940-1945 REEL 1 Military Operations, 1939-1945: North West Europe, 1944-1945

Object Type: IWM interview
Access Conditions: IWM copyright
Number of Parts: 6

Uncat Record

 

Unless he was an officer, it is unlikely that he'll be mentioned by name in the War Diary. For example a relative of mine killed in WWI, on that day the diary records that 10 O/Rs (other ranks) killed by shelling. Coupled with the fact he doesn't have a known grave, it is fairly obvious how he went. At least it would have been quick. So don't expect too much detail.

Lee

In my experience with WW2 diaries, this isn't the case. Unless it is a big attack and there a large number of casualties, I have seen far more names of ORs mentioned in WW2 diaries than I have in WW1 diaries. Very often the circumstances are given. So well worth a look IMHO.

 

Thanks Paul that's encouraging to hear apologies for the delay in replying we hope to visit the Archives before Christmas so i will update as soon as we go, my dad has found out that Raymond's best freind who grew up on Holyhead Mountain with him was part of the RWF in the battle of Kohima but sadly he was killed so we are going to try and do some research on him also, he wrote Raymond a letter during the war asking how he had Edwin were doing that was the last time Raymond heard from him.

Will update once we have been...looking forward to it.

 

Hello everyone I apologise for my absence over the past couple of months our computer is doing it's impression of the anti-christ (it plays the part so well)

Well my father's research is ongoing and the help from this forum has been invaluable and frustrating (i don't mean this really it's just that it's opened up so many other avenues of research and the forum members help would never have led us this far to date...thankyou your help has not only started us off in the right direction but catapulted us into a mass of information)

My dad's research states that at some point his uncle Edwin 21st or 20th AT rgt was attached to the Gordon Highlanders this would have been midway through Sept 44' can anyone assist...?

Regards

Gareth GAZTWR O

 

Have you been up to the archives to look at the War Diaries yet? His AT Regiment may well have supported a Gordons battalion at some point, but they wouldn't have been attached to them. The unit was a divisional asset and could be placed as and where needed. In September 1944 they would have been pushing through Belgium up into Holland.

 

We are travelling to Holland in 6 days time to re-visit our great uncle's grave who is buried in Leopoldsburg. Edwin Owens was part of the RA during Op Market Garden we have tracked him down to having been hit by a panzer that was crawling up the canal path in Son en Breugel whilst the Allies were crossing a Bailey Bridge for the push for Market Garden in Sept 44'. Does anyone have any more info that we can work on ?? he wasn't killed initially but died in the 19th field hospital ,does anyone know where the field hospital may have been during the fight ??

Ironically Edwin's brother Raymond was fighting not far away with the RWF 4th Btn. and was granted special leave to go and see Edwin but he had died by the time Raymond arrived. Raymond lived a fantastic life living on Holyhead mountain on Anglesey as a farm hand and died some 10 years ago, he was such a part of our family he loved our son Sion who was only 2 when he died but Sion still talks about Raymond today and is so looking forward to visiting Holland in the next week, any further help would be much appreciated. Thanks GaztwrO.

 

Hi everyone
I need some help please . i have received my fathers war records and it show he was with the 20th anti tank regiment . unfortunately he passed away when i was a young lad , so did not speak to us much about is wartime experiences.
He was on d day landings , is it possible to find out which landing craft ,
he got wounded on or about 6th July 44 , where ? ? He was lucky to be near a field hospital at the time also as luck had it his sister was a nurse there and looked after him
any pointers for me to start researching would be great

 

Hi Pete

You may be better off starting a new post with full details of what you know to date, including his name.

In the meantime, Trux has provided an excellent list of everyone that landed on D-Day including 101 Anti Tank Battery which was from the divisional 20 Anti Tank Regiment

Sword Beach.

If he was part of 101 Anti Tank Battery then I believe they were there in support of the 9th British Infantry Brigade - see War Diary at:

9th British Infantry Brigade During World War 2

Hope this helps...

Quis Separabit

 

Hi Peter-I have a copy of the 1944 regimental diary WO 171/913 20 Anti-Tank Regiment Jan-Dec 1944. Send me a private message if you'd like a copy. I charge 10p per page and it's under £10 with my fee going to charity during lockdown.