I have been tracing the family tree and through that have obtained a copy of my Grandad's WW2 army records. I dont have a particular specialist interest in WW2 like most of you on the site and my knowledge is quite basic. in an effort to try and find out more I've tried to do some reading up but its such a vast subject that its pretty impossible to know where to start. So I'm hoping someone on the site can give me some pointers on how to decipher his records - I was very excited when i got them but they have given me more questions than answers! I know from family folklore that he fought for most of the war and was seriously injured at Monte Cassino (shrapnel wound to the neck). We have his medals, Italy, France & Germany and Africa Stars and the general war one (name escapes me!). He was also in Germany at the end of the war (Berlin possibly?) and my Dad tells me he obtained some swastika armbands although we dont have them anymore. He would never talk about the war other than to say he never wanted to go through it again and he died 25 years ago. So in trying to match up his records I have found that he was wounded in 'Italy' within the first few days of Monte Cassino so that fits in although it doesnt actually say that he fought at Monte Cassino. He also 'embarked' for France and then was 'evacuated from Belgium' during the time that the evacuation of Dunkirk happened so I can surmise that was involved in Dunkirk but again, no positive proof. His records show that he went to France, Germany, Italy, Egypt India and interestingly, Iraq (I had no idea WW2 was fought in Iraq until now). How would I find out exactly where he went? I would really like to know in more detail the battles he was involved in. His records show several 'woundings' in addition to Monte Cassino and a couple of admissions to hospital. I assume that in the absence of any notes about injuries, these would have been for illness, perhaps malaria or infectious diseases like dysentery. how would i find out more about his injuries? Grandad left the army in April 1946 although the war ended in 1945 - was this usual? I assume this is when he was in Berlin/Germany. Would he have volunteered for this 'extra' service or was this expected? I cant believe anyone would want to carry on after 5 years of service but his first wife left him during the war so perhaps he didnt want to come home. His records mention 'TOS' and 'SOS' quite a lot. I think I understand the abbreviations but not the meaning. As i understand it, 'SOS' means 'Struck of Strength' ie you are not available for whatever reason (perhaps injured) to be counted towards the 'strength' of your unit. So if TOS means Taken on Strength does that mean you are replacing someone who is SOS? Although the last record says 'TOS from O'seas python' and then he goes home so that cant be right - help please! He joined the Yorks & lancs regiment which i understand recruits from South Yorkshire. He lived in West Yorkshire and there was a WY Regiment so why wouldn't he have joined that? Lastly, there are lots of abbreviations on his records, the army helpfully provide an extensive list but its doesnt contain all the abbreviations so any lists would be useful. Many thanks in anticipation of your help, My Grandad was a lovely quiet man who led a very ordinary life after the war but what looks like a very extraordinary life during the war. He was always a a hero to me but I am now beginning to understand how much of a hero he was
Hi AND WELCOME. Since you have his service records the next best thing to do would be to list his units and the dates he was with them and view his units war diaries held at the National Archives. If you can get there I can copy the diaries for you. List the units and dates he was with them and I'll tell you the diaries you want. Cheers Andy
Dates etc would be a key to discoveries (eg when was he wounded / transfers etc) but just to kick off the Italian bit : The Yorks and Lancs Regiment had two battalions in the Italian theatre: 1st Battalion as part of 15th Brigade within 5th British Infantry Dvision. 6th Battalion as part of 138th Brigade within 46th British Infantry Division. Both divisions were active in South /Central Italy - "you mention wounded at Cassino, " which might actually cover the overall campaign period during the first half of 1944, rather than actually at Cassino town or on the Cassino massif. But the dates should show that clearly. A great deal to be read around the period Jan-May1944, but a couple of headline points: 46th Dvision were poised to take part in the Garigliano river crossings, but their first landings were disastrous and further landing attempts by the Division were aborted by Gen McCreery. 5th Division moved into the Anzio beachhead in March 1944 On Iraq, there was a Persian and Iraq Force (PAIForce) that was active during the war period - in 1942, a major concern was a breakthrough by the Germans through the Caucausus to the oil fields. 5th British Division were stationed with PAIForce in 1942/43. I think that once you reconfirm dates, you'll be able to start tracing battalions/movements/dates. Richard
Hi Confusing isn't it For the abbreviations - Abbreviations - World War 2 Talk Here is a bit of a guide, it takes a bit to look through. I have done something similar with my own Father's records so have a look here- http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/searching-someone-military-genealogy/21898-war-records-help-abbreviations-interpretation-service-records.html SOS - struck off strength, yes they were wounded or not able to function with the unit TOS - taken on strength- joined back to the unit Python - http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/general/29512-python-lilop-leave.html read this. With him being discharged in 1946, it took a while to get everyone back home, they went depending on how long hey had served. Also some would have been assisting with whatever the army wanted them to do after the war had finished, ie sending Germans back to Germany. He may also have just been back at the base, awaiting discharge. Hope this gives you a start in understanding everything regards Robert
Do you think you can upload the army records if it is not too personal so that members will be able to tell you more about him. Some of the details on army records can be confusing but the vets on here can translate army records into plain English for you! Lesley
Hello and welcome to the forum. Put simply SOS Struck off strength means taken off the serving officers list of the regiment they are tranferred out of. TOS, Taken on strength is placing them on the serving list of the Division that they are transferred into. Every transfer involves the notation. Regards Tom
Just a quick one on your grand father's length of service and your associated comments: "Grandad left the army in April 1946 although the war ended in 1945 - was this usual? I assume this is when he was in Berlin/Germany. Would he have volunteered for this 'extra' service or was this expected? I cant believe anyone would want to carry on after 5 years of service but his first wife left him during the war so perhaps he didnt want to come home." I'm sure some of the veteran's will fully enlighten you, but in my father's case: He was conscripted on 18/10/39 and was finally formally discharged on 10/6/46 - a period of 6yrs 236 days of active service. About 300 of those days was spent undertaking occupation duties in Austria. He was then held in reserve until discharged from that possibility on 30/6/59. Some of the men who were conscripted after my father were readying themselves to be sent to the Far East in Aug'45 - when they were told to stand down. I presume your grand father would have been conscripted in mid 1939 and on the principle of "first in, first out" (with exceptions) was thus discharged in the spring of 1946.
thank you so much to everyone who has posted so far, who'd have thought that in 24 hours i could have so much more info, I really appreciate it. having looked at his records under the column 'Unit' when he joins it starts off as '6th Y&L' which i am taking to mean 6th battalion. he was also transferred in 1941 for a brief period to 15/19 hussars . it also mentions '1 Y&L' presumably 1st battalion and either 1B/L or 1B/N, cant make out the handwriting. the problem is that its handwritten and in parts its nigh on impossible to make out what was written. Andy thanks for your kind offer to look up the diaries at TNA, once I have decipered them a bit more I will certainly contact you, its much appreciated. Richard, I had heard of PAIforce but on Grandad's records in a stamp its says 'SOS PaicTo. MEF' is this the same thing? I think Cassino will be a good starting place for me to do some further research as i know he was definately in the area.He was injured on 21/1/44 which i think was within the first few days. he was transferred to the field hospital and then the next entry is for june 1944 so assume he was injured for some time. what really upsets me is that Grandad's first wife had twin boys in october 1944, approximately 9 months after he was injured, almost fatally (you can now see why she was his first wife!). Lesley, once i've worked out how to do it I will post his records on the site, if people are willing to translate them that would be amazing, i would be absolutely thrilled. lastly, thanks to the links I also understand what LIAP means! he had a couple of 'LIAPs' in 1945 so i feel glad that he had some respite from it all. the records say 'LIAP 3(EXTRA)' thank you so much for all your help
Thanks for the thanks. The dates and further detail start to make a lot more sense. I'll stick with Italy for the moment. I may have slightly mislead in not saying that the 5th Division also was involved in the Garigliano crossings - rather bloodily near to the left side of 10th Corps attacks. The date 21st Jan 1944 suggests your grand father might have been involved in 15 Brigade's assault over the Garigliano towards Minturno from 17th Jan onwards John Ellis's "The Hollow Victory" has a fair amount of detail on this period and quotes a stat that 1 Y & L had 51% casualty levels in 4 days of combat. The book is excellent. 'SOS PaicTo. MEF' suggests "Struck Off Stength PAI to MEF" (ie Middle East). The "c" might or might not be significant. I presume that this would have been in early 1943. Does his Africa Star have a 1st Army clasp - if with 5th Division who had left Iraq for Egypt, probably not. Personal stuff... gulp. He had been away from home probably since the middle of 1942. Richard
Nicks /Richard my money would be on 5th Division as they came from Egypt area for Husky( Sicily) then up Italy from Reggio alongside the 1st Canadians then to the Sangro - over to the Garigilaino - short stint in Anzio ( I think) then back to Egypt- again back to Italy and finished in the NWE area before the end of the war - which would account for the medals - they were NOT 1st army- but PAI force- which counted for the Africa Star but no fighting as they were standing guard in case the Germans descended from Russia into the Olifields of Irag/Iran etc Cheers
Tom, Makes total sense that during the service period in Sicily/Italy, he would have been with 5th Division (i.e. 1 Y & L) I hadn't known that PAIForce men had received the Africa Star - good learning, Richard
Richard - happens every day you will have noticed- when learning stops - we tend also to stop- 46th Div landed at Algiers through to Tunis - then Salerno and through the Gari - then a rest in Egypt (?) back to the Gothic (Croce/Gemmano) and from there to Greece Cheers ps - correction 46th Div ended in Austria around the Graz area
Hi All drew is very kindly looking at Grandads records to work out the units and then fingers crossed he will be able to get hold of the information from The National Archives, very exciting! I have seen on other threads that people have posted photographs and have got some great information back so I'm posting this in the hope that you all might be able to help although there are not a lot of identifying features. one photo features Grandad in a group of three (he is the one sat down on the left). I assume the other two are mates in the army, I don't recognise them. on the rear of the photo is printed 'Photo Thiele F832 Schonberg 1/M'. I've done a quick online search and Schonberg is in Belgium on the border with Germany and near to the Seigfried Line. the other photo I have scanned in days gone by, the original is held by my dad and I've called its 'Grandad - Egypt' athough I cant now recall why I think its Egypt, I assume its written on the back! i could be wrong on this point though. This one is of Grandad stood up against a metal railing. any help on these would be great although i appreciate there's not a lot to go on Nic
