Heavy Machine Guns. .50, 12.7 etc.

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by von Poop, May 15, 2011.

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  1. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I'm probably being lazy here, but I can only think of a handful of genuinely heavy ground-based 'smallarm' MGs of WW2 Vintage:

    .50 'Browning'. *
    Vickers HMG (Not sure; maybe always vehicle mounted?)
    12.7 Soviet DShK *
    Japanese type 93. *
    15mm Besa (Have I seen that on a tripod, or is memory failing?)
    And maybe a couple of Italian ones, but I can't think of 'em at the moment.
    *So that's only three that I'm currently sure about, and I've got doubts that the Japanese one was ever officially deployed outside of AA/Vehicle use.

    Not sure the assorted 20MM auto weapons qualify, as most are well beyond man-portable. I haven't hit the books yet, but in the meantime;
    can anyone think of any other (really) Heavy MGs of the period?
    (Sticking to things potentially with an Infantry use - stuff that can be plonked on a tripod or small carriage, at around about .50/12.7 calibre.)

    ~A
     
    von Poop, May 15, 2011
    #1
  2. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    Were any old 1 pdr 20mm pom poms used in ww2 ? I can't remember of had but did someone have .50 auto anti tank gun?

    On wiki there is a Polish .50 with a tripod or some kind of mounting that looks like it is for infantry support?
     
    wowtank, May 15, 2011
    #2
  3. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    I am not sure I would call any of them "man portable" as they all needed a crew to handle them as independent rather than vehicle mounted weapons.

    In addition to your list I would add the 11.35mm Madsen (used mainly in south America in the "Chaco" wars) and of course the 13.2mm Hotchkiss.

    The Czechs mounted the 15mm ZB60 (15mm BESA) on a strange carriage with spring wheels for ground use but I am not sure how much use was made of this. There is still an example of the ground mount rusting away at the old Kynoch ranges at Radnor.

    The Italians used a 12.7mm HMG based on their version of the .50 Vickers round which was much liked by the Long Range Desert Group for mounting on their Chevrolet trucks.

    The 20mm weapons were either used as semi auto anti-tank guns (Solothurn, Lahti etc,) or as anti-aircraft/anti armour cannons, so not really qualifying as heavy machine guns.

    Of course, the 14.5mm Russian KPV qualifies as an HMG as it is often used as a ground weapon, but is again crew served.

    Regards
    TonyE
     
    TonyE, May 15, 2011
    #3
  4. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Right now I can add only the French Hotchkiss 13,2mm on a tripod.
     
    Za Rodinu, May 15, 2011
    #4
  5. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Senior Member

    Italian 12.7 infantry MG ?
    IIRC while there were Scotti and Breda SAFAT weapons firing 12.7 x 81SR but they were aircraft weapons and AFAIK not issued to the infantry. They were used on ground mountings for base defence by the Areonautica Militare during the cold war but it was more "putting to use what is in the depots" than "by design".
    The 20mm Breda is really a light cannon not a HMG.
    I think there were more soviet large caliber MGs than the KPV, The DShK (12.7 x 108) existed in tripod mounted form and I believe was issued to toops as HMG.
     
    TiredOldSoldier, May 16, 2011
    #5
  6. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    Italian 12.7 infantry MG ?
    IIRC while there were Scotti and Breda SAFAT weapons firing 12.7 x 81SR but they were aircraft weapons and AFAIK not issued to the infantry. They were used on ground mountings for base defence by the Areonautica Militare during the cold war but it was more "putting to use what is in the depots" than "by design".
    The 20mm Breda is really a light cannon not a HMG.
    I think there were more soviet large caliber MGs than the KPV, The DShK (12.7 x 108) existed in tripod mounted form and I believe was issued to toops as HMG.

    I never said the Italians used the 12.7 as an infantry weapon, simply that they was used in a ground environment by the LRDG.

    Whilst I did not mention the 20mm Breda specifically, I said that the 20mm guns were cannons and thus did not qualify as HMGs.

    Finally, I did not mention the DshK for the very simple reason that it was listed in the original post!

    Do try to read posts properly, old chap!

    Regards
    TonyE
     
    TonyE, May 16, 2011
    #6
  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Interesting beasts though, aren't they.
    Plenty of variety in the medium/light MG arena, but comparatively little in the Heavy; where it seems the perfection of a design in aroundabout the 20s allowed pretty much two standard types to soldier on for the rest of the C20th.
    Chucking a large round through brick walls or light armour at a decent rate - job apparently done. And you never hear a serviceman complain at the support/presence of .50s.

    Zb60 does indeed seem to be the 15mm Besa I was thinking of.
    Modern Firearms - ZB 60

    Good stuff on the .50 Vickers at the VMG page (as ever):
    The Vickers Machine Gun

    First expression of the breed? .42 to 1 inch:
    Gatling Guns: Service and Description, 1878
    (1 inch version preserved at Woolwich illustrated here, but they're definitely field pieces really, and somewhat drifting off the point.)

    I find myself wondering how long the M2 Browning will soldier on.
    It's already becoming a contender for longest serving military weapon, and it was one of those odd 'Future Weapons' type programmes that got me thinking about 'em - there was another 'revolutionary' multi-role large calibre MG/Grenade launcher on there, and though we seem to see a lot of such stuff, nothing appears to yet be even close to replacing a design only 10 years away from it's century.
     
    von Poop, May 16, 2011
    #7
  8. leccy

    leccy Senior Member

    .50 'Browning'. *

    I assume you mean the Later Browning M2 HB (Heavy Barrel) as opposed to the original M2 which was a water cooled HMG mostly used in WW2 as an AA weapon and required a crew of 3 to operate it (Gunner, Loader and water pump operator)
     
    leccy, May 16, 2011
    #8
  9. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    The .50 Browning mounted on my Honey was belt-fed and, if my memory serves me right, NOT water cooled.

    Both that gun and the .30 Browning that I actually got to fire were both belt fed straight from narrow ammo containers designed specifically for that purpose.

    Ron
     
    Ron Goldstein, May 16, 2011
    #9
  10. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    von Poop, May 16, 2011
    #10
  11. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Thanks Adam

    Ugly bastard, wasn't it ?

    Ron
     
    Ron Goldstein, May 16, 2011
    #11
  12. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Senior Member

    I never said the Italians used the 12.7 as an infantry weapon, simply that they was used in a ground environment by the LRDG.

    Whilst I did not mention the 20mm Breda specifically, I said that the 20mm guns were cannons and thus did not qualify as HMGs.

    Finally, I did not mention the DshK for the very simple reason that it was listed in the original post!

    Do try to read posts properly, old chap!

    Regards
    TonyE

    OOPS! completely missed the reference to the DshK in the OP, my bad.
    But if we add aircraft weapons on limited production vehicle mounts we will have practically all German aircraft MGs and possibly a lot more. What I was looking for was weapons used by infantry teams and apparently the SAFAT was, at least post-war. What got me curious was the reference in the OP to Italian large caliber infantry weapons.
     
    TiredOldSoldier, May 16, 2011
    #12
  13. brit plumber

    brit plumber Member

    I love the M2HB, theres not too many weapons of this vintage still in use today. The thing with the M2s is that they were pretty much the first interchanagble weapon to be mass produced. The basic M2 could be a watercooled gun one day, a HB the next and a AC aircraft version the day after.

    This is one of mine.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    brit plumber, May 16, 2011
    #13
  14. TonyE

    TonyE Senior Member

    Interesting drill rounds you have there, not many .50 cal rounds have a cupro-nickel envelope. What is the headstamp please?

    Regards
    TonyE
     
    TonyE, May 16, 2011
    #14
  15. brit plumber

    brit plumber Member

    Hi Tony, I'll get you the headstamps when I get back to the UK. I've a fealing there modern 12.7mm rounds, but will confirm.
     
    brit plumber, May 19, 2011
    #15

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