1. I have been informed that although a HEAT round existed for the 75mm L24 tank gun, Hitler did not allow its use in case it 'fell into enemy hands'! Can anyone confirm this and do you think this would apply to the 75mm Infantry Gun where used as well? 2. Penetration data does exist for the 20mm & 37mm tank guns, 37mm AT gun, 37mm(t) and 47mm(t) using the Panzer Granate 40 tungsten AT round but when was it first used? I understand that Germany more or less ran out of tungsten in 1943 & that was the last time these were manufactured and/or issued but can anyone tell me if there was a time when Germany did not have or felt it did not need to use this technology?
1: The 7.5cm KwK L/24 was not the same thing as the 7.5cm lIG, so they did not share the same ammunition. As for that rumour, it's an unheard of rumour to me 2: What PG40 tungsten round? For the 7.5cm PaK 40??? In general terms the Germans did not feel the need for something with more oomph before they met the T-34s and KVs, so before they started wanting it and finally decided they needed the tungsten better for making machine tools than shooting it in the enemy's general direction, not much time did run Here's a photo for you from Tony Williams 37x249R (3,7 cm Pak / Kwk AP), 50x289R (5 cm L/42 Kwk Pzgr 40), 50x420R (5cm L/60 Pak 38, Kwk), 75x243R (7,5 cm L/24), 75x495R (7,5 cm L/43 and L/48: later Pz IV), 75x640R (7,5cm Kwk 42 L/70: Panther tank), 88x571R (8,8 cm L/56: Tiger 1), 88x822R (8,8cm L/71: Tiger 2). The difference between the short and long gun rounds is shocking, isn't it? The lIG 7.5 does not show here, but the propellant case is about the size of a tea cup Lone Sentry says: 2. Infantry Guns a. 75-MM LIGHT INFANTRY GUN (7.5 cm le. I.G. 18). (1) General description. The 7.5 cm le. I.G. 18 is an infantry close-support weapon firing in both lower and upper registers. It has a box-type mount on pneumatic-tired disk wheels, and is fitted with a shield. A modification, the le. Geb. I.G. 18, has wooden-spoked wheels, a split tubular trail, and no shield , this version has similar performance and is used by airborne troops. Both models have an unusual tube, encased in a slipper block. Operation of the breech mechanism causes the rear of the tube to rise clear of the block for loading. (2) Characteristics. Caliber . . . . . 75 mm (2.95 inches). Length of tube . . . . . 34.75 inches. Weight in action . . . . . 880 pounds. Maximum range . . . . . 3,900 yards. Muzzle velocity . . . . . 725 feet per second. Traverse . . . . . 12°. Elevation . . . . . -10° to +73°. Traction . . . . . Motor- or horse-drawn. Mountain version . . . . . Six pack loads. (heaviest 165 pounds). (3) Ammunition. HE and hollow-charge rounds are fired by this gun. The HE rounds weigh 13.2 and 12.13 pounds.
1: The 7.5cm KwK L/24 was not the same thing as the 7.5cm lIG, so they did not share the same ammunition. Didn't occur to me it was a different gun altogether, I will differentiate between the two now... 2: What PG40 tungsten round? For the 7.5cm PaK 40??? The Guns vs Armour website has data for PG40 rounds for the calibres I mentioned, for example: German Guns 37mm to 42mm calibre ...and this is from German Anti Tank Guns 1935-45 by Werner Haupt, talking about the 37mm PAK: ...which is why I was wondering when the tungsten rounds became available. In general terms the Germans did not feel the need for something with more oomph before they met the T-34s and KVs I had a reply on the AHF forum: Panzer Granate 40 & HEAT saying that when it hit the fan in Russia, Hitler had to authorise the previously withheld HEAT rounds. Just trying to get to the bottom of wether to factor in fancy high-performance rounds or stick to bog standard AP data. Nice fotes there BTW.
Just trying to get to the bottom of wether to factor in fancy high-performance rounds or stick to bog standard AP data. Such 3.7cm HEAT ammo would be so rare that I would simply discount it. The rush was on to reequip with the 5cm PaK 38 at least.
Such 3.7cm HEAT ammo would be so rare that I would simply discount it. The rush was on to reequip with the 5cm PaK 38 at least. Sorry Miguel what I meant was, I wasn't concerning myself with Steilgranate stick bombs for the likes of the 37mm PAK just the APCR or APCNR (as opposed to normal APC) rounds for the smaller calibre AT & tank guns (inc those in Czech tanks) & the HEAT round only for the 75mm KwK L24 in the Panzer IV & when it became available. ps: From Wikipedia: "The Pak 36 began to be replaced by the new 5cm Pak 38 in mid 1940. The addition of tungsten cored shells added slightly to the armour penetration of the Pak 36..." which seems to imply the PzGr40 came in after the 50mm AT gun appeared?
In terms of the East front those tungsten projectiles and the numbers deployed would upgrade the lesser calibres from Peashooters to Beanshooters And yes, the PzGr 40 would have come in after the PaK 38 service entry as this did not replace every unit (never did) all in a go, they were replacing the former guns as they came out of production but then were to be replaced by the PaK 40 which came into service in '42. In fact in 1945 there were still PaK 36 in service. Furthermore you have to count also that these were to be the official German guns, as there were also the impressed Austrian, French, Belgian, Dutch, Italian, Russian, etc, etc ones. Also there would be the squeeze-bore guns (28/20 and 42/29), and these were the real tungsten eaters. Of the latter, the comment in 'the book*' says : "Shortage of tungsten for special ammunition production ceased in 1942. Existing guns remained in service until available ammunition used up." But perhaps I'm still not seeing your point... * Small Arms, Artillery and Special Weapons of the 3rd Reich - T. Gander / P. Chamberlain
Sounds like we are of the same opinion as to what was used in the period I am into. I will use normal AP round data, then, and no HEAT for the Pz4s B)
Oh, the HEAT for the 7.5s is another story. There was the Hohlladungsgranate 38, which was carried on to the Pz IIIs regunned as the Pz IIIN, plus the 7.5 L/24s scrounged for the half/tracks and for the 234 8-wheeler ACs. These would anyway be rather limited in abilities due to their very low muzzle velocity, on the order of 450 m/s, so you wouldn't have much chance of hitting a moving target. These guns were mostly used for HE anyway, the HEAT being a for emergency only role.
This page should give you some idea about PzGr-40 introduction and use German Weapon and Ammunition Production The best I have for 75mm HEAT follows - unfortunately i didn't record a link to the forum where it was posted Hi, I can give some more detailed data based on original sources. The Gr. 38 (no HL used in the designation on introduction) was not in use in 1939, since the final ballistic firings for the ballistic table were made in March 1940. The first manual containing it was printed in July 1940 and it was officially introduced in June 1940, so there is a chance it was used during the BoF, but there is no combat report pointing its use out found till now (have to admit that I never looked for one also ). The Gr.38 Hl/A was introduced for the 7.5 cm IG and 7.5 cm Kw.K. in June 1941, I have the original introduction publications from the Heeresverordnungsblatt. The first Gr. 38 Hl/B were introduced in 1942, the first Gr. 38 HL/C in 1943. The time span for the introduction of the new ammunition types depended a lot of the guns firing it. There were differences of over an year. E.g. the first gun types received a Gr. 38 Hl/C types in 1943, others not before second half of 1944. Cheers Bob
