HALIFAX MkV LL 114 - Crash

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Bandy, Aug 25, 2017.

  1. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Yes I noted that John 35 was missing from the operation information

    I scanned the records twice attempting to trace Johnson as a Commandant and Lecointre on his former role in Attorney which might have been an envisaged SOE reseau which never was commissioned.(Paul Johnson as Heslop's wireless operator is given a good account in his role and also that of being Heslop's assistant.)

    Then checking further found that Attorney whose name suggests a F Section reseau was indeed one.It transpires that it has been described by MRD Foot in his SOE in France as "an abortive circuit".The reseau is in the records as being set up in October 1942 and on the books until August 1943 but its record is recorded as being "disjointed".The reseau was small and intended for small sabotage on railways between Amiens and Boulogne.It never got off to a start. As I see it, Andre Girard (Carte) thought his reseau in South Eastern France should take priority over Attorney.

    However Attorney is shown on a later map in the area of John R2 as "Area of Operations For Main Circuits" from Major Robert Bourne-Paterson's SOE in France 1941-1945 which was written as a restricted document in June 1945.Perhaps Lecointre's presence in South Eastern France accounted for this record.
     
  2. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    I received a PM from member "Ferrieu" this morning questioning the authenticity of the photo of J22367 F/O Arthur Edward Reid that I posted some time back. The reason given is that Reid's service number was J22367 and the photo shows a service number of R124718. And apparently his uniform is incorrect.

    Rather than get into a long winded ramble about commissionings I think it best to just post a page from his service file, upper left corner, showing NCO number scratched out following his commissioning on 30 December 1942.

    reid service file numbers.jpg
     
  3. Bandy

    Bandy Junior Member

    Hi,
    I have no doubt about the authenticity of picture of F/O REID.
    The explanation is on the Record of service, as the comment of Alieneyes.

    Our investigations about the circumstance of this crash come on. We have checked more of 100 JOHN operations in the south-east part of France. In the exact area JOHN (R1), but always nothing about this "hide" opération JOHN 35.
     
  4. Bandy

    Bandy Junior Member

    New informations about Gerald Denis CARROLL (137405) the pilot.
    I have found in:

    The Supplement of London Gazette (31th August 1943) Pg 3929.
    In RAFVR General Duty Branch these infos:


    At the date of 20 August 1943:

    Plt.Offs (prob) to be Flg Offs on prob. (War Subs):

    What is the meaning of this short text with a lot of abbreviations ?

    It's not easy for a French guy, I suppose that is promotion in a new rank.

    Andy.
     
  5. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    P/O and F/O promotions are Probationary while War Subs is abbreviation for War Substantial ..quite common with RAFVR,ie,servicemen who joined the RAF from 3 September 1939.

    General Duties Branch refers to flying duties branch and only applied to Officer Aircrew...a legacy from the founding of the RAF, the fact that officers were not trained in any trade category........ ....classed as gentlemen and gentlemen were not allocated trade training.

    Probationary in this case meaning subject to ongoing satisfactory service.

    War Substantial meaning for the duration of the war.

    From the records, overall,it means that unless a candidate's personal assessment /circumstances changed,he would not be offered a permanent commission during the war.

    During the war,quite a number of RAF commissioned ranks on promotion were subject to War Substantial clauses..served under a prewar regular...Sergeant Aircrew in 1940.then Group Captain in 1943 (War
    Substantial) but held the Substantial rank of Group Captain 10 years later.

    War Substantial officers relinquished the W.S rank after the war and dropped back to their Substantial rank....this particular officer's rank dropped back to Wing Commander after the war end which was his wartime Substantial rank.After the war he was eventually promoted to Group Captain,then to Air Commodore,both Substantial.
     
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  6. Bandy

    Bandy Junior Member

    Thank Harry,
    Now all is clear for the sucessive ranks:

    1/ LDG (Leading air Craftman) G.D CARROLL (1457099) is promoted Plt. Offs on prob. (emergency) the 20/02/1943.
    I see that is with a new matricule number (137405).

    2/ Exactly six months latter:
    The Plt. Offs (Prob) is promoted Flg. Offs on prob. for the duration of the war, the 20/08/1943.

    3/ 5 months and 19 days latter he dies in operation, after only 57 days in the Sqd 138, during his fifth operational mission. (8/02/1944)
     
  7. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Bandy.

    LDG would be LAC classification as in normal RAF abbreviations and would be an interim stage in F/O Carroll's pilot aircrew training retaining his OR service number of 1457099.After flying training he could have passed out as an NCO,with the rank of Sergeant or commissioned as he clearly was with an officer service number of 127405.

    Incidentally F/O Carroll's OR (Other Ranks) service number suggests he joined the service at RAF Cardington,Bedfordshire in April 1941.His entry rank would have been AC2 as other recruits but his trade would have been ACH (Aircrafthand) which was the trade category for those destined for flying training.It was also the trade category for those destined for technical training as groundcrew.

    One other point about flying training,pilot trainees were assessed during the course according to their ability/suitability/personality traits and a decision made via the Chief Flying Instructor on passing out as to their future role.

    Some were assessed as better suited to be deployed as fighter pilots and their training continued for this role while others were better suited to be pilots within Bomber,Coastal and Transport Commands.Their training followed a syllabus as appropriate to the command that they would be ultimately posted to.There was certainly a distinction between the selection for fighter pilots and those selected for piloting lower airspeed aircraft.
     
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