Gunner Harold Forden WW2 service history

Update on my Post 15, cited in part: 'Now to find how 124 Field Regmt came to lose your father, others know the Desert War far better so his date of capture 20th June 1942 should help.It appears to have been the Gazala battle:'

Just followed a link provided by Owen in Post 3 and that shows with my additions:

From: Battery Finder – Regiments 80 – 139 - The Royal Artillery 1939-45

The 72nd Brigade was not part of the 50th Division and its Wiki entry is very thin, worse than that the Order of Battle when checked is wrong. See: 72nd Brigade (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

This thread: Batttle of Knightsbridge Box refers to the 150th Infantry Brigade being captured in the Knightsbridge Box and they were part of the 50th Division.

Note before his capture on 27/5/1942 287 Field Battery was with an ad hoc unit, not the 150th Infantry Brigade. Who after a skirmish with Rommel's troops moved into the box. See Post 8: 6th Bn Green Howards May 1942

There is a set of twelve photos of 287 Battery taken 23/9/1939, so after your father's attestation - could he be there? See: 287th (3rd Northumbrian) Bty: Blyth ROYAL ARTILLERY SEPT 23RD 1939 NEWCASTLE • £59.99

Oddly a South African history states the battery was within the Tobruk fortress / position on 20/6/1942:

See pg. 175: https://www.gunners.org.za/wp-conte...FRICA-AIR-DEFENCE-ARTILLERY-CORPS-HISTORY.pdf

 

Thanks for all the help, not sure I fully understand Regiment and battery. Is there any way to find out if he was in a particular battery or do records stop at regiment level?
Got excited about photo but couldn’t see Dad.
See attached photo

 

Thanks Owen, how do you get the unit war diaries?

 

Hi another question, does anyone know how to get POW record cards ? I’ve contacted the Red Cross they didn’t have it, also had an address in Blackpool they didn’t have it. Are there any other places to request? I always ended in a dead end.

 

What do you mean by POW record cards?

If you mean the German POW Index Cards that were seized by the allies after the war you will find the UK POW cards are held in UK National archives.

They used to be freely available under FOI (that’s how I got my fathers) but you now have to pay UK NA to copy them - or have a researcher do it - as they have not been digitised.

In addition to the index card some of the seized files contained the POW photo.

I think they are held within the Discovery database within file series WO416.

I have also seen POW cards in a format similar to B103 within Scots Guards service files on Findmypast. They record a man’s POW movements presumably on the information provided by ICRC.

Members here have posted similar cards provided by MOD with the service file but that is a rare occurrence.

Steve

 

Hi Steve yes I mean the index card. My dad was in IVb and IVG. Is it something you can get online?

 

As I said they aren’t available online - you need to visit personally or request a copy - but you can search WO416 via Discovery for the reference.

War Office: German Record cards of British and Commonwealth Prisoners of War and some Civilian Internees, Second World War | The National Archives

Steve

 

Thanks for info appreciate it.

 

Went through WO416 no records so looks like another dead end.

 

The supporting text does mention that in the immediate post war years if a man made a pension claim on the basis of injury/illness sustained whilst POW the index card was requested by Ministry of Pensions and was retained with the application papers.

Pension papers have apparently been destroyed in accordance with Ministry of Pensions rules.

Steve

 

Thanks Steve. I think his card was just lost.

 

Hi after more help understanding my Dads service records:

when he enlisted is there a way to find where this was? He was from the North of England Middlesbrough. Was 22nd Field regiment in the North east?
He enlisted on 04.01.39
Then posted on the 11.01.39 to training camp
4 days later to 22nd Field regiment 15.04.39, I assume after basic training?
4 days later 19.04.40 1st General Base Depot ( Does this mean he has left 22nd field regiment after only 4 days? Is 22 field part of 4th Inf division?
What is a general base depot?
He went to BEF from 02.10.39 to 01.06.40 assume evacuated from Dunkirk
Then 10.06.40 he joins 76th highland field regiment
Then posted to depot 21.06.40, what does this mean? Would he have now left 76th field regiment? Part of 51 division?
Then posted to a reserve regiment, 22.06.40 1 day later. what is a reserve regiment?
The posted to 124 Field regiment pt of 50th Inf div. This is when he goes missing at Tobruk?

Mia it normal to move around so many times, sometimes after a few days? Or have I got all of the above wrong?

I added the full content of his service but as mentioned it’s lots of hand written info which is difficult to understand.

lastly it’s been mentioned about getting war diaries for the above. I’ve seen on the site that some people will get them for you at a cost of 10p a page etc. would I be looking at 100s of pages?
Appreciate I’ve added a lot of questions here so as always all help welcome. Thanks in advance

paul

 

Paul,

An Attestation Card may show the location of him joining the army. Note he was not conscripted, he volunteered on 4/1/39 and this was before the UK joined hostilities on 3/9/1939.

The 4th Infantry Division was a regular formation and the 22nd Field Regiment was assigned to them (right through WW2). Wiki does not have their actual 1939 location. They moved to France / Belgium in September 1939: 4th Infantry Division (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

However it is likely to be in the South of England, e.g. a garrison town like Aldershot. On war being declared this site states 22 Field Regmt was at Shorncliffe Camp, near Dover, Kent: 22 Field Regiment RA - The Royal Artillery 1939-45

I have not encountered 1st General Base Depot before, that aside I expect is was a depot to house soldiers between units and then send them onwards, preferably as part of a formed and led ad hoc unit e.g. for 4th Division.

Wiki refers to the 4th Division in France as:

Given the scale of the Dunkirk evacuation, minus most equipment (except rifles) the British Army was chaotic for sometime, hence the various postings.

The 76th Field Regmt. was a Territorial (reservist) unit and was part of the 51st Division, then 3rd Division in France before evacuation: 76 (Highland) Field Regiment RA(TA) - The Royal Artillery 1939-45 Plus: 51st (Highland) Division - Wikipedia (Note mainly lost in France) and 3rd (United Kingdom) Division - Wikipedia

I will leave alone what happened to him then. The chaos of June 1940 may be found in his Service Record, as the clerks were trying to keep up!

 

Thanks for additional info. Would he have chosen the army and RA or been told? Would it be normal to send him away from home?

 

Yes my mistake.
Was it normal for them to be moving around?
Did you see question about war diaries - people advertise on here that they can get copies - would they be 100s of pages? I guess I'm looking for ones from his time in BEF and then his time with MEF. I did get some info years ago ref war diaries, I'm still looking for it. As I said originally I'm picking this back up after a long gap. Im sure the diaries were missing for May and June 1942 possibly destroyed prior to capture at Tobruk.
Thanks agin for all info

 

Hello Paul,

The 124th Field Regiment, RA, were Divisional troops of the 50th (Northumbrian) Division. Their pre-war depot was at Cowgate, Newcastle Upon Tyne.

The 50th (Northumbrian) Division’s pre-war recruitment area was the old Northumberland, Co Durham, North and East Yorkshire, the latter including Hull. This was a large slice of the ancient Kingdom of Northumbria (pre the formation of England).

The 124th Field Regiment, RA, usually supported the 69th Infantry Brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division. The 69th Infantry Brigade constituted the 6th & 7th Bns Green Howards and 5th Bn East Yorkshire Regiment. The Green Howards depot was in Richmond (North Yorks), but recruited heavily in the Middlesbrough area.

I note that your dad hailed from Middlesbrough, so he was soldiering with and supporting infantry, all nominally from the north east of England.

He was taken PoW during the Gazala Gallop, which was during the breakout stage of the Battle of Gazala (current day Libya). The situation was that 50 Div had the enemy to the west and the east, but if they broke-out east towards Egypt and safety, they would have to do so through the enemies armoured/mobile forces. Instead, they broke out by attacking the enemy to the west and once through them, turned south/south east and then when clear of the main enemy activity, they headed east for ‘the wire’; meaning the Egyptian border. Once assembled there, 50 Div was ordered to go to Mersa Matruh. He would have been taken PoW somewhere on this journey.

The breakout was an incredible feat in as much as 50 Div did not retreat, they attacked the enemy, defeated him and then headed for Egypt. Unbelievable audacity and bravery, when you consider that the rest of the 8th Army was retreating.

See the Battle of Gazala and Breakout sections in this link: 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division - Wikipedia.

Best,

Steve.