Hi folks, its me again. I have a question concerning this thread started by my friend Marc. Your help in reading the diary would be much appreciated. It seems to me that it says that Lt. Duncan was killed on the 15th. His grave and the GWGC-database says something different. I have now learned from someone with familiy ties to where his grave is that the GWGC says that Lt. Duncan was killed by artillery fire on the night between the 13 and 14th May and that this is confirmed by the war diary. Or could that be some other diary? Does it say something like that here? It seems I have some particular trouble trying to read this diary. Thank you for your help! Martin
As far as I'm aware CWGC don't give that info or have that kind of info in their records? Looking at the images above it states Lt Duncan is missing.
As far as I'm aware CWGC don't give that info or have that kind of info in their records? Looking at the images above it states Lt Duncan is missing. Missing it says? Thank you! I really could not get that kind of info from the diary. About CWGC, I am only quoting from a mail sent to me. I myself have not been in touch with CWGC, so I can not say more about that. I am trying to make sense out of these conflicting pieces of information. For me the diary posted above makes perfect sense but puts his death (or the day he went missing) one day later than the German grave of the LT. However the modern day grave and GWGC list him as killed one the 14th. But even that is not the day the Germans attacked, that was the 15th. Thats a mystery for me. And I like my mysteries solved ) Thanks again! Martin
I don't have the Regiments History (Book) yet but there may be some good info in that. I'll come back to this when I get a copy.
It looks as if communication was lost with the 'D' Company Command post on the night of 14th / 15th May. The date of 14th May is likely to have been chosen as the last date that he was reported alive. Shelling seems to have commenced on the 14th May. I'll have a go at transcribing the pages.
Rich: makes perfect sense to me. But why would the Germans, who could not get their hands on the Lt before the 15th give his day of death as the 13th? It is obvious that these dates are the result of the usual "fog of war" and its effect on record keeping procedures. But who made the mistake and who is correct? I would love to see a report of the attacking 79th German Infantry Division, but unfortunately I do not have more than a few lines on this from a book written by former members of the division.
REMELING 14 May Telephonic communication from ADV. Bn. H.Q. at Remeling and "D" Coy in HEYDWALD cut by artillery fire night 13/14 May. Attempt to re-establish communications with this company by telephone on 14 May unsuccessful. 14 May Night 14/15 May The four exits to Remeling village and Rear Bn. H.Q. FORGEVILLE FARM, Registered by Enemy artillery. "D" Coy. in HEYDWALD heavily shelled and telephone communications from "D" Coy. Cmd. post no.4 was cut between posts no.s 1.2. On A,B,C Coy. fronts fairly heavy shelling and enemy patrol activity. Reconstruction of pos. no. 11 by A Coy. orderedto be started night 14/15 May 15 May A,B,C Coys reported wire badly in need of repair. Wire ...? sent up to these Coys. O.C. D Coy. attempted to extablish communication with posts nos. 1.2 but patrol driven back by enemy M.G. fire from between these posts. 2 Messages from O.C. D Coy to Bn. H.Q. attached. The first was brought by French Liason Officer with mixed post no.15 to East of TOCKFIELD FARM. The 2nd by 2878470 Pte. G. Rennie. Capt. Lawrie asked for a Hadiator ??? patrol to help him establish contact with his forward Pls. REMELING 15 May. 15.00 Fighting patrol under 2/Lt. H. McR. Gale (or Gill ?) was sent up to Capt. Lawrie at 15.00hrs. He was unable to reach forward Pln. positions and reported that posts 1.2 occupied by Germans. Fighting patrol remained in Cmd. post and covered withdrawal of Capt. Lawrie & remains of "D" Coy. "D" Coy. Casualties. 2 Officers and 59 O.R.s & 1 Officer attached from H.Q. Missing ................................2/Lt. N Duncan ................................2/Lt. M.S. Langham Wounded 6 O.R.s REMELING 15 May 16.00 Major Christie received instructions from Bde. Cmdr. to withdraw remainder of "D" Coy if he considered it necessary. This he did and ordered the withdrawal of Capt. Lawrie immediately. Message taken by runner. The withdrawal being covered by the fighting patrol. 18.00 Capt. W.H. Lawrie & 28 men arrived at Adv. Bn. H.Q. 16.30 Order received from Bde. Cmdr. at Adv. Bn. H.Q. to withdraw to a defensive position south of Remeling but to still hold Remeling. 19.00 These orders cancelled by telephone and Bn. ordered to withdraw behind the Ligne de Recueil. A staff officer was being sent up to Adv. Bn. H.Q. with instructions.
Rich: makes perfect sense to me. But why would the Germans, who could not get their hands on the Lt before the 15th give his day of death as the 13th? It is obvious that these dates are the result of the usual "fog of war" and its effect on record keeping procedures. But who made the mistake and who is correct? I would love to see a report of the attacking 79th German Infantry Division, but unfortunately I do not have more than a few lines on this from a book written by former members of the division. Martin, it looks as if contact with D Company's forward positions was lost during the artillery barrage of the night of 13th/14th May. It may well be that unbeknown to the British, the positions were raided late on 13th May. It is clear that some posts were in German hands by 15th May but there is actually no definite statement as to when they fell. There is also the possibility that he was killed by the barrage and a date of death given by survivors.
Rich, thank you for your efforts! That transcription really is helpful. I had some awful problems with the text. Guess I need better glasses... The German attack on the Heydwald was on the 15th. Thats the only time when the Germans could "capture" the Lt. It is of course very much possible that he was killed before the attack. By artillery fire on an earlier day, most likely, I agree. For me its just very odd to see this sequence: - LT gets killed by artillery fire, late on the 13th, early on the 14th - Germans attack the Heydwald with new tactic, overrun the defenders which they capture nearly complete without any major losses on both sides - Germans take dead LT with them and bury him in the next town under their control where he rests to this day - Germans think he died on the 13th, probably after some POWs one told so - after war, CWGC investigates, gets a different reply from someone and changes his grave marker day of death to the 14th. Well, I suppose, this is one of those occasions where the truth will not be proven, because every version with every day of death is possible and no version more likely than another. If we take that book into account we even have the LT killed by a "sniper" which the German army did not have in 1940 and would make his death more likely on the 15th when the German infantry actually attacked. Thats in fact another possible version.
I don't think that it's down to glasses Martin, although I am very pleased with my new multifocal Zeiss lenses (They make jolly good spectacles, the Germans !). When I first started work, most of my correspondents wrote in a similar style and very few used typewriters. In general, I don't find the handwriting difficult at all. I wouldn't place too much significance on the 'sniper' description. Whilst it may not have been a 'trade' at that time, most troops would have regarded single rifle shots aimed at specific targets to be 'sniping' and officers were prime targets.
I don't have the Regiments History (Book) yet but there may be some good info in that. I'll come back to this when I get a copy. I have it now and its says in the 15th May part of the book: 2nd Lieut N. Duncan was never heard of again and 2nd Lieut. M S Langham became a prisoner of war.
Drew, Rich, thank you very much! I will try to obtain some more info from the German side. Unfortunately this operation is surprisingly bad documented in what I have so far (XXX.Korps diary). I would have hoped for an after-action report which, so far, is a no-show. Thanks Martin
Very interesting posts here....I am new to the forum but have trying to find out about Lt Duncan for some time as I live in Manderen just two villages away from his grave. I put the Poppy cross on his (and around 150 others in the area) grave every year .... as a side note my children both attended school in Launstroff and each year they have a commemoration for the Villages war dead including Lt Duncan's. Now I am going to try and track down any family he may have left. Thx to all.
