Grandfathers service record.

Discussion in 'General' started by Chris D., Oct 5, 2009.

  1. Chris D.

    Chris D. Member

    Ladies & Gents,
    having just obtained my grandfathers service record I wonder if anyone could shed a light on his postings. He was RQMS in the Northumberland Fusiliers (TA 1939)
    1. 10th Btn 16.12.1940
    2. 30th Btn 09.12.1942
    3. P.S.I Northern Comm pool 26.02.1943
    4. 24th MGTC 20.10.1943
    5. 26 Sp ?g centre29.12.1943
    6. 14 DLI 10.08.1944
    7. POW Voyage Guard 24.08.1944
    8. 189 POW camp 20.10.1944
    9. 200 POW camp 02.12.1944

    It also has, Service afloat (canada POW voyage guard 24.08.1944 to 26.07.1945

    Thank you in advance

    Chris
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    PSI is Permanent Staff Instructor.

    This would suggest he was a regular soldier attached to a TA unit and responsible for training the unit. The rank in the Army today is normally a Sergeant or Staff Sergeant or in your Grandfathers case a Colour Sergeant. They normally (Today) get this posting on promotion to that rank.


    That might fit in with MGTC -Assuming it stands for Machine Gun Training Comapny.

    I wonder if he was medically down graded and unable to serve overseas?

    Hope puts a bit of meat on the bones for ya.

    Regards
    Andy

    Ps Jim is the DLI expert and he may be able to tell you if they were a training battalion? I suspect they were.
     
  3. Chris D.

    Chris D. Member

    Andy,
    Thanks,

    he was always TA born 1901, Joining in 1921 discharged 1925, re-joined 1928, WOII in 1938 for duration. At the outbreak of war he was 38.

    Chris
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    PSI may mean somthing different then ....Unless he was employed by the TA unit on full time stregth before war broke out. I can only speak for how it works today being Ex TA myself but I wouldn't have thought things have changed that much - Some are still issued with the same kit from 1940 :lol:
     
  5. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi Chris,
    Lets try and fill a few holes unfortunately I cannot add anything with regard to his time afloat but heres a brief rundown I`ve tried to keep to the time period of the dates mentioned but in some cases they may overlap.
    The 10th Northumberland Fusiliers were formed in October 1939 from No40 Group National Defence Company under the command of Lieut-Colonel R. Allen. In December 1941 the regiment was renumbered as The 30th(HD) Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers and at this time were attached to The 15th (Scottish) Division. Although based at Gosforth the battalion had various guardposts through out the North of England. Command of the battalion passed to Lieutenant Colonel R H Rohde. Although a Home Defence Unit it was ordered overseas in 1943 but before this there was a significant change in personnel with the older and less fit amongst the battalion remaining at home awaiting new postings to other units/regiments(Northern Command Pool).
    In 1941 it had been decided that all machine gun regiments(RNF, Cheshire, Middlesex and Manchester) would have an amalgamated training centre at Chester this was known as the 24th Machine Gun Training Centre.In November 1942 the centre had out grown the available site at Chester so the 26th MCTC was formed at Blacon Camp in 1943.PSI in this case I believe was Primary Training Instructor (Training of raw recruits in military drills)
    The 14th Durham Light Infantry were formed alongside the 16th and 17th DLI in 1940 as so called Dunkirk Battalions equipped and billeted with the 16th DLI in Edinburgh the 14th DLI(and the 17th DLI) did not see active service as a unit becoming a training battalion in the Autumn of 1943 first at Durham then to Otley in 1945 disbanded in 1946 whilst staitioned at Blandford.
    POW Camp 189 was at Dunham Park Camp, Altrincham, Cheshire.
    PoW Camp 200, Llanover, Abergavenny, Wales After D-Day the camp accomodated German and Italian prisoners from 1944 until 1946.


    Regards
    Verrieres

    sources;-
    The History of The Northumberland Fusiliers in the second world war
    The DLI at War .
    Faithful The Story of the DLI
    www.lifeaftertheservices.org
    POW Camps in UK - 1 to 100
    Reserves and reservists the British Army of 1914-1918
    New Forum • View topic - Abbreviation
     
    Drew5233 likes this.
  6. Chris D.

    Chris D. Member

    Verries,


    Outstanding!!!!!!!!
    I do recall a tale of my grandfather whilst home on leave Drill 'raw recruits' @ Bedlington drill hall Northumberland, so you have filled the holes correctly.

    Where would I look for his time afloat?

    Once again thank you

    Chris.
     
  7. Chris D.

    Chris D. Member

    Gents
    WOII 4261256 CSM G H Dickinson

    He joined the TA in 1921 & signed up for 4 years in the NF.
    He re-joined in 1928 & served until 1949.
    1928...posted TA NF 09/02/1928
    Promoted L/cpl 19/05/1928
    Promoted Cpl 13/05/1929
    Promoted L/Sgt 17/05/1935
    Promoted Sgt 14/05/1937
    Promoted Acting WOII (Sgt Major) 01/09/1939 RQMS (Regimental Quater Master of Stores) 06/09/1939
    Promoted WOII (Sgt Major) RQMS 06/12/1939

    Now with all the fantastic information that Verries has given to my 1st question I am pleft with 2 questions.
    1. 04/10/1945 released to calss "Z"/T (Class A release) from 10 POW Camp ?
    2. I am aware he was with the army in Germany untill 1949 but can find no trace on his record!
    He was sent home with a chest infection from Germany where he died at home 3 months later
    The last entry on his record is DIED 24/04/1949 whilst serving on class Z(T) WOII reserve + S.O.S reserve wef any more help please

    Chris
     
  8. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Someone will correct me I`m sure but I believe that Class Z was a release to the reserve forces but an expectancy that should they be needed they would be recalled immediately unless you were over 50 .The Class A Release was announced back in September 1944. It divided servicemen into two classes. The majority were in Class A. For these men, the order in which they would be demobilized was calculated I believe by taking into consideration their date of birth, and the date in which their war service began. Each servicemen was allocated a Release Group Number that he could consult in the official Forces book, Release and Resettlement. The older you were and the longer you had served, the lower your Group Number would be. I think simplified this translates to the older you were and the longer you served ...the earlier you got out?...Like I said if I`m wrong someone will correct me..I`m sure.Source as per previous post.
    The date of his release 04/10/1945 indicates this is when his war service/ career ended ,yet you can recall service in 1949? With his Class A classification this is something I cannot explain. There were Three POW Camp 10`s Gosford Camp, Gosford Castle, Markethill, County Armagh,Cockfosters Camp, Barnet, London,Stamford Camp, (Markethill Camp), Empingham Rd, Stamford, Lincolnshire ,sorry cannot be more specific on that one.The SOS refers ,I believe,to Struck off Strength.

    Verrieres


    Sources as my first post.
     
  9. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    Yes (this all sounds extremely familiar!)

    Some more details on the mechanics of demob here if anyone's interested.

    From what I recall, all able-bodied demobs were technically released into Class Z for theoretical recall in time of emergency (this, in 1945, with an eye to the Cold War). There was some discussion of calling up members of Class Z during the Korean War and IIRC a few actually were.

    All the best, Alan
     
  10. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Alan

    You say: Some more details on the mechanics of demob here if anyone's interested.


    Well I certainly was and this is the first time I can remember seeing a chart showing how my Group Mumber was arrived at.

    I followed my date of birth (1923) to the date I was enlisted (Oct 1942) and Bingo ! , I was Group 48 and that I do remember :)

    Many thanks for the details

    Ron
     
  11. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    No problem Ron. At least you were a relatively simple case. It got very complicated when e.g. men had been released for civilian war work for an intervening period during the war - the months they were out of uniform were deducted from their war service (as you can imagine that caused quite a stink). And TA's were incensed that none of their pre-war service counted at all.

    Best, Alan
     
  12. Chris D.

    Chris D. Member

    Gents Once again thank you for this invaluable information.

    My Uncle (grandfathers eldest son) was recalled for Korea...devastated as he was at Anzio & thought he'd done enough!

    As for my grandfather......He was definately in Germany after the wars end on service as he attended his eldest son's wedding in Germany. He was sent home with a chest infection & died within 3 months of getting home.

    I have noticed on his service record the following....

    proceeded on release leave on 28/07/1945 Infantry records York. released class Z/T

    8/45 Royal Army reserve 04/10/1945 (Class A release)
    A.F.X 202/B serial No.1180 29/08/1945

    Age & service group 8

    One last piece if possible....
    On his original Attestation to the TA in 1921 form E.501
    section 7 states..Do you now belong to or have ever served in the R Navy Army RAF etc.
    He wrote...Volunteer Training Corps, 3rd Bt NF 390661 discharged 10 Nov 1918


    26 Sp tg centre 29.12.1943 Any ideas ?


    Any help on this part please

    regards

    Chris
     
  13. Chris D.

    Chris D. Member

    Hi Gents,

    26 Sp tg centre 29.12.1943 Any ideas ? = 26th Support Training Centre

    Chris
     
  14. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi Gents,

    26 Sp tg centre 29.12.1943 Any ideas ? = 26th Support Training Centre

    Chris


    Wild guess here 26 Springburn training centre,Glasgow used for army courses during ww2 part of the Ministry of Labour ?

    3rd (Reserve) NF Battalion
    August 1914 : in Newcastle on Tyne. A training unit, it remained in UK throughout the war.
    Moved to East Boldon in August 1914, then to Sunderland

    Verrieres
     
  15. idler

    idler GeneralList

    A 'Support Training Centre' sounded plausible in the context of the NF who provided machine gun battalions to support infantry divisions with Vickers Medium MGs and 4.2" mortars.

    Then I found this with a reference to the Middlesex and Cheshire Regts who were also machine-gunners. The site looks like it's full of anoraks with nothing better to do on a Friday night but they may have the answer ;)

    Two-thirds of the way down post 5 is:
    The second “HOME” period consists of a 6 months posting to 26 Support Training Centre at Saighton Camp, Chester; still with GHQLR. This is followed by 2 months posting to 5 Bn Cheshire Regt, followed by posting to 43 and 38 Reserve Holding Unit RHU, Middlesex Regt.
     
  16. Chris D.

    Chris D. Member

    Verries & Idler,

    Both interesting answers!
    Is it possible to look at a natural progression?

    24th MGTC 20.10.1943
    26 Sp Tg centre 29.12.1943
    14 DLI 10.08.1944
    i.e. where was the 24th MGTC based? & where was 14 DLI based?

    Regards

    Chris
     
  17. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Verries & Idler,

    Both interesting answers!
    Is it possible to look at a natural progression?

    24th MGTC 20.10.1943
    26 Sp Tg centre 29.12.1943
    14 DLI 10.08.1944
    i.e. where was the 24th MGTC based? & where was 14 DLI based?

    Regards

    Chris


    24th MGTC was based at the Depot of The Chesire Regt in Chester
    14th DLI were formed on the 4th July 1940 at Brancepeth,Co Durham before moving to Edinburgh (along with 16 & 17DLI) October 1940 saw the 14th battalion on coastal duties on the English border.Early in 1941 the 14thDLI joined 206 Independant Infantry Brigade in February the battalion was stationed in and around Folkestone.March the 14th DLI moved to Shorncliffe.In July they moved to the Gravesend area for large scale exercises.August saw them return to Folkestone.In September the 14th were in Paignton in Devon.
    In January 1943 the 14th left the West Country and moved to Hornsea near Hull at this time the battalion started to loose its fitter long standing officers and men in their place there were the more recent recruits fom various Primary Training Wings etc. In July 1943 the battalion moved `Home` to Durham City and by the Autumn of 1943 the 14th DLI had ceased to be a field force battalion instead it was converted to a Rehabilitation Unit (Centre) The battalion now received drafts of low morale,poor physique etc including repatriated PoW`s who were put through various courses and tests to determine the soldiers role and capabilities in other units rather than the front line ones they had previously served with.


    Verrieres
     
  18. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

  19. Chris D.

    Chris D. Member

    Verries,
    once again thank you you have filled in a lot of gaps.
    Canuck,
    I do not understand your post????

    Chris

    PS Where do I look for 'service Afloat?
     
  20. Chris D.

    Chris D. Member

    Hi Ladies & gents,

    sorry for bringing this back to the front, but I am one piece missing from completing my Grandfathers story!!!

    Where to I go to find records of his 'service afloat' (Canada) with POW's??
    Now Canada could be ship, but the only one I could find was a hospital ship!

    regards

    Chris
     

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