Hey all, I recently acquired a real nice set belonging to one and the same person. What I would like to figure out is what his carreer was. There is something strange what needs reasearching. Who is willing to help ? This is what I do know : Name: J Watson Murray Service number : 145867 found a tag same service number and 2nd bn The London Scottish ... and Dumfries Served in Africa in the 8th army ( 8th army africa ribbon on BD ) Africa / tropical uniform from the Gordon Highlanders ( Full uniform incl socks and all ) Rank 1st Lieutenant during Africa campaign. fifty shillings Battledress dated 1942 shows ( All original mounted ) - Rank of captain - Infantry pips - Long Gordons insignia - 48th South Midland Division formation sign - 2 brigade strips ( second brigade ) - Green / olive lanyard - BD Shows clearly details of a square formation sign being attached in the past. ( HD size ) One Gordons officer T.O.S. One 1939 dated T.O.S. with a white band Glengarry Gordons named Also a large pack is included from 1917 with possibly fathers name : G.W.A. MURRAY What I don't know : What would the carreer of this person have looked like ? Would this person be attachted to the 51th Highland Division ? I can't see any Gordons attacted to the 48th... how about that... I can't see any history of London Scottish in Africa... any leads ? Who is willing to help ? Thank you very much !!
48th (South Midland) Infantry Division became 48th Infantry (Reserve) Division on August 5th, 1944. It was reorganized at this point. To quote from my book on the TA Divisions, "In the 1944 reorganisation of the training units all but the numbers of the division and its brigades changed. It moved to Northern England and became responsible for the final stages of infantry training for men from the Scottish and Northern Commands. Each of the battalions would receive two companies of ‘Young Soldiers’ every two weeks. They would then receive four weeks of platoon and one week of company training, and then be drafted to an active battalion, hopefully one of those affiliated with the Infantry Training Centre. Each of the eight training battalions were organised into six companies, one for each of the Young Soldier companies present and a drafting company. The battalions retained in their headquarters company token numbers of mortars, carriers and anti-tank guns. In addition the division employed its own (and borrowed) artillery so as to give the recruits some experience in the noise and fury of battle." At this point the divisional organization changed and the 144th Reserve Infantry Brigade (the second brigade) was organized with the 10th Battalion Cameronians, the 9th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders, the 10th Battalion Black Watch and the 2nd Battalion London Scottish. It remained this way until the end of the war. This would explain the 48th Division connection to your man. Regarding his earlier career, he was probably sent as a reinforcement to a Scottish unit in North Africa at some point from the 2nd London Scottish, possibly to a Battalion of the Gordon Highlanders, since the London Scottish was affiliated with the Gordons. The London Scottish Regimental History by Barclay mentions a number of drafts take from the 2nd Battalion during its service in the UK. Your man could have left for North Africa on one of these drafts.
I checked the Gordon Highlanders Regimental History by Miles and found two mentions of your man. It appears he was a Lt. with the 5th/7th Gordon Highlanders at the time of El Alamein. The first mention is during an attack across the Sidi And el Rahman Track on November 3rd, 1942. The Battalion was mounted on tanks of the 8th Royal Tank Regiment. Most of the tanks were hit by 88mm guns and set on fire. 'B' Company lost all of its officers. Lieutenant J.W. Murray wa shot through the foot. This would explain why he ended up in a Reserve Division later. He remained with the Battalion throughout North Africa and landed with the 5th/7th Gordons in France in 1944. He was again wounded by artillery fire on July 12th, 1944 in the area of Colombelles. This would probably assure his move to the Reserve Division.
Hey Dryan67, thanks for your input ! This makes a lot of cense. Would it be possible to share / send me a printscreen from the information you found for my dossier file on this ? Where could I find such records ?
I found this order of battle from the 48th S/M Division. I see no Gordons attached to it, would a captain remain its Gordons roots commanding a different regiment back in the day ? Or would would should he have become titles and badges from a regiment in the serving brigade ? World War II formation 143rd Infantry Brigade 1/7th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment 8th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment 5th (Huntingdonshire) Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment (to February 1940) 1st Battalion, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (from February 1940) 144th Infantry Brigade 5th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment 7th Battalion, Worcestershire Regiment (to February 1940) 8th Battalion, Worcestershire Regiment 2nd Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment (from February 1940) 145th Infantry Brigade 4th Battalion, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry 1st Buckinghamshire Battalion, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry 4th Battalion, Royal Berkshire Regiment (to February 1940) 2nd Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment (from February 1940) Divisional Troops 1st Lothians and Border Horse 67th (South Midland) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery 68th (South Midland) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery 99th (Buckinghamshire Yeomanry) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery 168th Medium Regiment, Royal Artillery 53rd (Worcestershire Yeomanry) Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery 48th (South Midland) Division, Royal Signals TA 224th (South Midland) Field Company, Royal Engineers 225th (South Midland) Field Company, Royal Engineers 226th (South Midland) Field Company, Royal Engineers 227th (South Midland) Field Park Company, Royal Engineers 48th (South Midland) Divisional Royal Army Service Corps Territorial Army Headquarters - CRASC (Commander Royal Army Service Corps) 516th Ammunition Company, RASC TA 517th Petrol Company, Royal Army Service Corps TA 518th Supply Company, Royal Army Service Corps TA
48th (South Midland) Division - Wikipedia See in red below 48th (South Midland) Infantry Division (1941-45) 143rd Infantry Brigade[35] Main article: 143rd Infantry Brigade 1/7th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment (until 3 October 1942) [36] 8th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment (until 13 July 1944)[36] 143rd Infantry Brigade Anti-Tank Company (until 1 April 1941)[36] 1st Battalion, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (until 9 November 1941))[36] 10th Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry (from 16 November 1941 until 3 September 1942)[36] 8th Battalion, Suffolk Regiment (from 4 September 1942 until 26 July 1944)[36] 11th Battalion, Green Howards (from 13 September 1942)[36] 5th Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment (from 26 July until 23 August 1944)[36] 10th Battalion, Duke of Wellington's Regiment (from 28 July 1944)[36] 11th Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment (from 1 August 1944)[36] 1st Battalion, Sherwood Foresters (23-31 July 1944)[36] 11th Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment (from 24 August 1944)[36] 144th Infantry Brigade[35] Main article: 144th Infantry Brigade 5th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment (until 21 April 1941)[37] 8th Battalion, Worcestershire Regiment (until 9 July 1944)[37] 144th Infantry Brigade Anti-Tank Company (11 February 1941)[37] 11th Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment (until 1 January 1943)[37] 9th Battalion, Somerset Light Infantry (from 20 April 1941 until 13 September 1942)[37] 31st Battalion, Royal Ulster Rifles (19-27 September 1942)[37] 7th Battalion, Royal Ulster Rifles (from 27 September 1942 until 14 November 1943)[37] 17th Battalion, Royal Fusiliers(from 10 December 1942 until 19 November 1943)[37] 4th Battalion, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (from 2 November 1943 until 9 July 1944)[37] 5th Battalion, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (from 19 November 1943 until 9 July 1944)[37] 10th Battalion, Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) (from 23 July 1944)[37] 9th Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders (from 24 July 1944)[37] 10th Battalion, Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) (from 22 July 1944)[37] 2nd Battalion, London Scottish (from 10 September 1944)[37] 145th Infantry Brigade (until 6 November 1943) [35] Main article: 145th Infantry Brigade 4th Battalion, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (until 2 November 1943)[38] 1st Buckinghamshire Battalion, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (until 12 December 1942)[38] 145th Infantry Brigade Anti-Tank Company (until 11 February 1940)[38] 2nd Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment (until 10 December 1942)[38] 6th Battalion, King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) (from 12 December 1942 until 6 November 1943)[38] 5th Battalion, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (from 3 January 1943 until 6 November 1943)[38] 10th Tank Brigade (from 17 October 1942 until 30 September 1943) [46] Main article: 10th Tank Brigade 108th Regiment Royal Armoured Corps[46] 109th Regiment Royal Armoured Corps[46] 143rd Regiment Royal Armoured Corps[46] Divisional Troops 68th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (until 22 August 1942)[39] 18th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (until 12 February 1941)[39] 24th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (until 22 August 1942)[39] 23rd Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (from 13 February 1941 until 14 November 1941)[39] 173rd Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (from 12 January 1942 until 30 March 1943)[39] 180th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (from 26 December 1942 until 31 August 1944)[39] 120th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (from 1 September 1944)[39] 168th Medium Regiment, Royal Artillery (from 10 April 1945 until 29 June 1945)[39] 12th Medium Regiment, Royal Artillery (from 9 July 1945)[39] 53rd Anti-tank Regiment, Royal Artillery (until 14 October 1941)[39] 93rd Anti-tank Regiment, Royal Artillery (from 12 November 1941 until 7 August 1942)[39] 96th Anti-tank Regiment, Royal Artillery (from 5 September 1942)[39] 48th (South Midland) Divisional Engineers, Royal Engineers 224th Field Company(until 13 March 1943)[39] 226th Field Company [39] 9th Field Company (until 12 November 1941) [39] 792nd Field Company (from 30 May 1945) [39] 227th Field Park Company (until 13 December 1941)[39] Divisional Field Stores, 77th Section[52] Divisional Field Stores, 77th Platoon[52] 48th Divisional Signals, Royal Corps of Signals (until 19 December 1942)[39] 48th (Reserve) Divisional Signals, Royal Corps of Signals (from 20 December 1942)[39] 5th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment (from 12 July 1941 until 13 October 1941)[39] 48th Battalion, Reconnaissance Corps (from 14 October until 18 November 1941)[39] 48th Independent Company, Reconnaissance Corps (from 4 January 1942 until 5 June 1942)[39] 48th Independent Platoon, Reconnaissance Corps (6 June 1942 until 3 January 1943)[39] TD
ahhhh fantastic !!!! Would it be possible to get more info on the service number such as date of birth and death or is this info only know to realatives ? Would Capt Murray have kept the gordons stripes while serving under the london scottish you believe ? Thanks very much so far.
To obtain his service records you would need his death certificate (unless he was killed during the war and is in the CWGC register). Would need a bit more information about him to find his death certificate, full name, approximate date of birth, in fact any little pieces of info Perhaps you need to contact one of the regimental museums, I have found them to be generally very helpful, if you dont push them too hard TD
I found this document on Ancestry.com, which may be your man. The age is about right and he was living in the borders area of Scotland in 1950, when he travelled to Hong Kong. This is speculation only, but it may be a start.
Spotted that and a few others - I think we need a little more info if possible otherwise......... red herrings or blind alleys come to mind TD
Thanks guys for helping out. I hope we can crack this puzzle together. Would it be possible to get a picture / photo to this person aswell somewhere ? Just filled in a research form on the Gordons website.
Forget my last post, i figured it out. Here is part of the collection. As you can see a pretty fair collection if i might add.
There was a photo of my father with his service record - so yes its possible, but I think you are way ahead of yourself at the moment, lets see if we can determine who he is. Patience is a virtue Lets see what the museum say - its possible you might need to send requests to other museums yet TD
wel TD... when i'm trying to find something out i'm not tending to layback and wait until it fall's all in my lap. I believe you understand. Of course, enthusiasm is taking a part of me but still i believe it is not being 'way ahead of my self ' that is me gathering the right info to file his history.
I think TD means that we can be more helpful after you have provided more personnel information about the man. Your request from the regimental museum will be most helpful to the members in trying to locate more details. I understand your enthusiasm, but often it takes time to gather information.
Your man is reported on Casualty List No. 1502 (Officers) Dated 19 July 1944 Expeditionary Forces/North West Europe/Wounded 5/7Bn Gordon Highlanders 145867 Murray W/Lt JW Date not reported
