Gold Beach. Brigadier Senior.

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Trux, Oct 12, 2015.

  1. mapshooter

    mapshooter Senior Member

    Joslen states that Brig Senior commanded 151 Inf Bde from 25 Mar 43, when the bde was enroute to Egypt before going to Sicily, until 6 Jun 44, the day he was wounded. Lt Col RP Lidwill than acted as Bde Comd until 10 Jun 44 when Brig BB Walton took over, he was wounded 16 Jun 44 and again Lidwill took over. Brig DS Gordon took over on 17 Jun 44 and commanded until 7 Dec 44 when he was replaced by Brig JF Walker. The brigade left NWE on 14 Dec 44 reaching UK on 15 Dec 44 and was disbanded in UK on 31 Aug 45.
     
  2. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    History is never (well hardly ever) a matter of hard facts. All historical 'facts' are open to interpretation. Assessing the weight to be given to evidence is one of the historical skills. Who wrote it? For what purpose was it written, Does this sound likely in the light of my existing knowledge and experience? Etc.

    I am surprised and grateful my simple question about a seemingly minor incident can produce so much information and discussion. I have many more questions, problems and mysteries.

    Mike
     
  3. idler

    idler GeneralList

    As he's been mentioned: Gordon had been CO 1/7 Queens in 131 Bde, 7 Armd Div, and was just back from Villers-Bocage where his battalion had been providing inspiration for the final act of Saving Private Ryan.
     
  4. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    *
    'No'. What I said was that he was a Colonel, not a General. The Germans were reported to have claimed the capture of a General, so it couldn't have been him.

    In 1944, Brigadiers were senior Colonels not Generals. The Brigadier-General rank was abolished in 1922 and replaced by 'Colonel-Commandant'. The latter 'title' was unpopular and was replaced 6 years later by 'Brigadier'. However, a Brigadier was still a Colonel.
    *
    *
    Err, 'no'. I dismissed it because Brigadier Senior was a Colonel, not a General. Nowhere in what you posted previously did it say 'a high ranking British officer' was captured, it said it was a General.
    *
    *
    That puts a potentially different complexion on matters, but there are still conflicting views on what happened to Ronnie Senior.
    *
    *
    Ronnie Senior was indeed ambushed on the 6th and escaped on the 7th June 1944, but what did he escape from? Had he been in hiding, saved from capture when some 'different' Bren carriers happened by on the 6th and then sprung from hiding when the Dorsets showed up on the 7th, or was he captured on the 6th and sprung from imprisonment when the Dorsets showed up on the 7th? That is still a mystery!
    *
    *
    The first two quotes prove nothing... 'believed captured' is not the same as a knowledgeable 'he was captured because I saw the Germans march him away from the ambush scene'. He was missing believed captured, that is not disputed.

    Ian English was the CO of the Carrier's, 8th Bn Durham Light Infantry, he may have saved Ronnie Senior from capture on the 6th and knew it. However, this is still conjecture as he didn't state that in his book.

    Unfortunately, Brig. Hargest's reports and ramblings on 50 Div have been largely discredited. I don't take any notice of them.

    In the round and personally, I don't care if Ronnie Senior was captured on the 6th June 1944 or not. What I care about is unequivocal fact(s). Until I see something from an authoritative source that puts him in the category 'captured', say like his own memoirs, I remain sceptical. I also don't believe we should try and fill in the blanks, suggesting what something should say; as that is tampering with the evidence.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  5. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    I'm afraid I can't add too much to this very informative thread but I do have one question: What happened to Brigadier Senior after his wounding and escape/evasion/rescue and subsequent evacuation? Did he ever get back to the front line?

    Regards
    Tom
     
  6. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    ...Bearing in mind that he seems to have been where he shouldn't have in an un-escorted Jeep and either lost or came very close to losing the Brigade signal codes to the enemy, there is probably a good chance that he didn't gain another command...this might also explain why the Brigade diaries don't dwell on the matter. It's not something that they would have been proud of.
     
  7. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    *
    He returned to NW Europe as OC 56th Infantry Brigade on 23 January 1945, and alternated between that position and acting OC 49th (West Riding) Division, for the duration.

    Remember that the 151st Infantry Brigade returned home as a training cadre in December 1944 and an experieced, battle hardened Brigadier like Ronnie Senior would be needed at the front.

    The 56th Infantry Brigade, who were second wave assault troops on Gold Beech on D-Day, left 50th (Northumbrian) Division in mid-August 1944 and after a brief stint with the 59th Division, ended up by the end of August 1944 replacing the 70th Infantry Brigade in the 49th (West Riding) Division.

    He was highly regarded.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
    Tom OBrien likes this.
  8. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    *
    It was the Germans who were where they weren't supposed to be and so, the 'mud' probably didn't stick!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  9. Arty

    Arty Member

    Steve,

    Well done - you've managed to conveniently dismiss all the evidence that doesn't agree with your version of events. As for “tampering with the evidence” I liked the way you created another potential scenario by posing the question about some “different bren carriers”.


    Bemused
    Arty




    Edit...Ian English was OC D Coy 8 DLI on 06Jun44, he had commanded the carrier platoon in 1942. Unequivocal fact(s)???
     
  10. I see faulty logic here: what matters in this case is not the British rank equivalent of "Brigadier", but what the Germans would have called it. Or the other way round: what would be the British equivalent of "Brigade-General" (a rank that did not exist in the German army) if not "Brigadier"?

    Was there any other British officer of a similar rank made prisoner by I/GR 915 in the same area on the same day? If not, then it must have been Brig Senior.

    As far as I know no other British or Canadian Colonel, Brigadier or General went missing in this area on 6 June, so for me the matter is settled :)

    Michel

    PS
    A couple more sources to look at:

    Anthony Bernard COLGAN, driver, 9 DLI, interviewed on 25 July 2001
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80020541
    Reel 3
    01:17
    "On this day, Brigadier Senior I think he was, went swanning off on his own in a jeep with his AdC and his driver of course, which I thought was rather not so much brave as a bit foolhardy, and he was spotted by some Germans and fired on. He was wounded, his AdC was killed and his driver got away scot-free and he was taken prisoner. The following day, a battalion sent out an infantry patrol and came across the Germans who still had the Brigadier and the driver as prisoner. While they were engaging our patrol, the Brigadier and the driver escaped, came round the back as it were, and were picked out. The Brigadier was on a hospital ship back home."

    George Pearson CHAMBERS, officer, 8 DLI, interviewed in 1988
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80010194
    Reel 3
    26:46
    "I remember the Brigadier, Brigadier Senior, was captured and wounded on the first day on landing, shortly after landing, how he did manage to, he escaped and got away."

    Peter Lawrence de Carteret MARTIN, Officer, 2 CHESHIRE, interviewed on 12 November 1992
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80012510
    Reel 6
    00:13
    "During the course of that afternoon in fact, the Brigadier, Brigadier Senior, with his Liaison Officer, had taken the wrong turning and had been ambushed by the enemy between 151 Brigade and 69 Brigade, and he disappeared. He rejoined us the following day, having been wounded in the arm. He and his Staff Officer had hidden until the enemy had been cleared out of that area before rejoining 151 Brigade. But in fact he had to be evacuated."

    William Herbert Wainwright JALLAND, Officer, 8 DLI. Took part in the search for the missing Brigadier, didn't find him but was taken prisoner himself, and later escaped.
    Interview date: 3 April 1991
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80011684
    Reel 8
    04:06 [account of search for Brig Senior starts - rather entertaining!]
    05:46
    "I never found him. You probably know that he had been ambushed and he'd been taken prisoner. His sign'er and his driver had been killed. He was saved because he had a Red Hat. His captors were a few Germans, half a dozen I think, who were in charge of, under the command of a corporal, German corporal. They were all very apprehensive and they wanted to get out and they wanted to kill the Brigadier, who could speak German and therefore was able to report this, they wanted to kill him and get out, and the corporal said "No", not because he was a prisoner of war or anything like that, but because he was a Man with a Red Hat and therefore must be very high up in the English Army and therefore would have a lot of information to give his superiors. So the corporal insisted on saving the Brigadier's life. The Brigadier waited, he was tied up, he waited till nightfall, and then, once things had quietened down a bit, he managed to roll into a ditch and wiggle down the ditch, went out of the way. In due course the Germans found out that he'd gone and immediately panicked and ran and left and he escaped. He was a very lucky man, but I never found him, but it was an interesting night, that of my D Day."

    Holborn's thesis on 56 Br Inf Bde is available here:
    https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFwQFjAIahUKEwiX7Lf9p83IAhVIMhoKHfDCDP8&url=http%3A%2F%2Flib-srvr9.lib.plymouth.ac.uk%3A8080%2Fpearl_xmlui%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F10026.1%2F1996%2FANDREW%2520HOLBORN.PDF%3Fsequence%3D1&usg=AFQjCNEOY0pS9obwi1fv-_i8BuPDRlqX6Q&bvm=bv.105454873,d.d2s

    The part on Brig Senior's capture is a near copy of that found in his book "The D-Day landing on Gold Beach: 6 June 1944".

    The source he gives for his assertion that Brig Senior was captured at 1630 on D Day is Simon Trew's Gold Beach, Sutton, Stroud, 2004 Page 80:
    "Much more unfortunate, however, was the fate that befell Brigadier R.H. Senior of 151st Brigade. Moving forward to visit his troops, at about 1630 hours his jeep was ambushed by a pocket of Germans near Bazenville (from Battle Group Meyer's I/GR 915). Senior's driver and intelligence officer were both killed, and the Brigadier himself was wounded and captured."

    Unfortunately, Trew does not state his own sources...
     
  11. Arty

    Arty Member

    Michel,

    I'm surprised you took so long to get involved! As a matter of interest what year(s) were the IWM interviews conducted?


    Regards
    Arty
     
  12. Arty,

    I've just added the interview dates as mentioned on the IWM pages linked in my post #30 above.

    Michel
     
  13. 151 Br Inf Bde War Diary for 7 Jun 44 would certainly give details on Brig Senior's rescue. Anyone with these pages out there?

    Michel
     
  14. Thanks to Danny, here's the complete verbatim story as told by HQ 151 (Durham) Inf Bde War Diary for 6-7 Jun 44 (the 6 & early 7 Jun parts have already been quoted by Arty, but I'm re-posting them here for completeness' sake):

    6 Jun
    "2100
    Bde HQ moved to area 842819. Earlier in the afternoon at approx. 1500 hrs,
    Bde Comd, Brig R.H. SENIOR, DSO, TD, accompanied by Liaison Offr, Capt R.S. JACK
    left Bde HQ to visit Mob Colns of 6 and 9 DLI. No information was subsequently
    received this day as to their whereabouts and it was feared that they had
    been made PW. Accordingly Lt-Col R.P. LIDWILL, DSO, CO 8 DLI assumed comd
    of the Bde. Div HQ was informed and GOC called at Bde HQ at 2200 hrs to
    discuss the situation. It was decided that no advance SOUTH of the main
    rd BAYEUX - ST LEGER would be made that night but that the advance would
    be continued at first light next morning. Orders were given to Bns to
    this effect."
    (...)
    7 Jun
    "0800
    Brig R.H. SENIOR being still missing it was decided to send out a recce patrol
    to search for him, the patrol to consist of one pl of inf supported by one
    sec of carriers supplied by 8 DLI. Their task was to search the area NORTH
    of BAZANVILLE between PIERRE ARTUS and CREPON over which none of our tps had
    passed the preceding day,and where it was suspected that a body of enemy inf
    was still hiding. The patrol carried out this task and later reported that
    the Jeep in which the Bde Comd was riding at the time of his disappearance
    had been found together with the body of L/Cpl HORTON (MM), the wireless
    operator who had been shot. They reported no sign of the Bde Comd or Liaison
    Offr Capt R.S. JACK. This information was passed to Div HQ who subsequently
    issued orders to our flanking formation for one of their units to sweep the
    area. Later at approx 1500 hrs the Bde Comd returned to Bde HQ and from him
    it was learnt that his party had been ambushed both Capt JACK and L/Cpl HORTON
    being killed and himself wounded in the left arm. He had been taken prisoner
    but during the sweep of the area that afternoon whilst his captors were engaged
    in fighting he and a private soldier walked away from the scene and managed
    to find HQ 50(N) Div in SOMMERVIEU. The Bde Comd was subsequently evacuated
    to the UK leaving Lt-Col R.P. LIDWILL in comd of the Bde."

    It looks like Hargest's words are not to be thrown away wholesale after all ;)

    Michel
     
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  15. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Part of a map I have been using to follow the movements of brigades and battalions on Gold.

    Bazenville.jpg

    Red. 69 Brigade moving inland.
    Blue 151 Brigade moving across the front from assembly areas at Meuvaines and Crepon.
    Top left 231 and 56 Brigades.

    In the centre the hill side, woods, orchards etc of Bazenville. By evening the enemy would have been trapped, with British troops to north east and west, and holding all the bridges over the River Seulles to the south.

    Mike
     
  16. Arty

    Arty Member

    Well golly gee look at that. And to think, I was only 'guessing'.... ;)
     
  17. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    A eulogy for a group of men long since extinct.

    I like to think of Brigadier Senior as one of that splendid band of men who belong to an age long gone. The Territorial Army officers who joined in the 1920's. Generally too young for WWI they were of 'good' family, public school educated and generally engaged in one of the professions. They were men of principle whose mission was 'to serve'. They belonged to an age when bankers, stockbrokers and lawyers were highly respected. They were men of honour who really would rather die for King and Country than do anything dishonourable. Men who would admit mistakes and resign if they made serious errors. By the beginning of the war they were company commanders and commanding officers of battalions. Some became brigadiers. They did not go to Sandhurst and did not hold pre war staff appointments but they formed a solid reliable body of middle ranking officers.

    Over the top perhaps but I did say it was a eulogy.

    Mike
     
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  18. Mike,

    Nice eulogy, to which I adhere as such.

    Now, for argument's sake, apparently Brig Senior did make a strong, but not always entirely positive, impression, on those who met him. See (or rather hear) the varied opinions on him as expressed by the following two IWM interviewees:

    Peter Lawrence de Carteret MARTIN (95604), then probably temp. Capt, 2 CHESHIRE
    interviewed on 12 November 1992
    http://www.iwm.org.u...object/80012510
    Reel 2
    22:39
    "The situation was extremely confused, but during the fourteenth of July [1943], I went forward with the Brigadier, Brigadier Senior, who had joined the, taken over command of the Brigade from Brigadier Beak who got sacked after the Battle of Mareth.
    Brigadier Senior was, I remember, a Kent [?] Guards officer, he had been commander of the Machine Gun Company in his Battalion before the reorganisation in his Machine Gun Battalion took place, and I reckon,he was a pretty fond, he was keen on Machine Guns. He was I think a very good Brigade commander, but I found him not a terribly easy person to get on with, particularly because one was aware the whole time that he was thinking to himself 'I wouldn't have done that with my machine guns'. But he was a good Brigade commander, there's no doubt about that."

    William Innes WATSON (35800), then temp. Lt Col, OC 6 DLI from Jul 42 to Sep 43
    interviewed in 1988
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80010198E

    Reel 46
    21:50
    "I remember that Andrew Clarke [temp. Lt Col Andrew Board Stephenson CLARKE (36319), DSO, then OC 9 DLI, KIA 23 Aug 43] being very antagonistic with our new Brigadier, towards our new Brigadier, Ronnie Senior, because he was always trying to shove down our throats his Regiment, the Queens, which annoyed Andrew Clarke very much indeed. In fact I don't think Andrew Clarke ever really got on with our Brigadier. Likewise I didn't, because we really were pretty experienced COs by now, and here was an upstart from another part of the Army, one might say.
    Q: Was he a 'Regular' soldier?
    A: No, he wasn't! He was a Territorial but he was at least two years older than me. He was really rich. I think he was Chairman of ??, he had horses and he joined the Territorials in 1924."

    Excepts from the IWM caption:
    "Account of operations at Primosole Bridge
    (...)
    16/7/1943; difficulty in finding Brigadier Senior: situation; reactions to orders for daylight attack across bridge and consequent dispute with Brigadier Senior. REEL 52 Continues: cancellation of orders for daylight attack across bridge;"

    (partial) transcription of the corresponding parts of the interview:

    Reel 51
    27:04
    "Then the Brigadier said to me 'Well now your battalion must go and attack' and he tells me that there was only a few snipers he thought holding up the advance." [remaing of reel garbled]

    Reel 52
    00:58
    "The Brigadier was I think very annoyed, and I'm convinced he really never liked me after that, but as I've also said, I knew a thing or two by then, I was fairly experienced CO, and so was Andrew too.
    Anyhow he's walked off, in a huff almost, and went across the bridge to see how the Eighth Battalion were getting on, but he couldn't get back, and I waited and waited for an hour, and in the end I went back to Brigade's Headquarters.
    There was the General himself and I told him whad had happened and the General then said there would be no daylight attack and he subsequently ordered that my Battalion and the remnants of the Ninth Battalion would attack that night after dark."

    Michel
     
  19. Devondoc1

    Devondoc1 New Member

    New to the forum, Captain Robert Scott Jack was my great Uncle and was my grandmother's brother. She had a tough time of it, her husband Flt Lt John Patrick Dickinson was a POW in Colditz when Robert was killed. Her other brother was serving in Malta. The family didn't know much about how he died. All they could tell me was that Robert had been killed in an ambush when they ran into a tank. Their impression was that he had told the CO that it wasn't a great idea to go and he had insisted. I think he was on secondment from the 2/6 South Staffs. Don't know anything else about his service.
    Was lovely to finally read about him and get a better understanding of where he was on D day. Will let my Mum and my aunts and uncles know. Regardless of decisions taken I am sure they were all incredibly courageous.
     
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