Glider Pilot Casualties

Discussion in 'Airborne' started by DPas, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. DPas

    DPas Member

    I have been looking through various books and I am struggling to find the figures for Glider Pilot Casualties at Arnhem.

    GPs at Arnhem by Peters and Buist (p295) - 1 Wing 131 Killed, 253 POWs, 2 Wing 228 Killed, 466 POWs - Total equals 1078

    Arnhem 1944 by Martin Middlebrook (repeated on the Pegasus Archive website) - 219 Killed, 511 Missing or Captured - Total 730

    Tugs and Gliders to Arnhem - 64 Officers and 666 NCOs - Total also 730

    Does anyone know which is correct (or closer to the actual number)? Am I reading something incorrectly?

    Thanks
    Dave
     
  2. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    The Roll of Honour gives a total of 229 Killed for the Glider Pilot Regt incl those with No Known Grave - As such the figures quoted in the Peters/Buist book must be incorrect as their deaths are 130 above this.

    John
     
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  3. DPas

    DPas Member

    Thanks John. Your expertise are most welcome as always.

    Perhaps I am reading something incorrectly in the book, or it perhaps it refers to a preliminary estimate made by Lt Col Murray and Lt Col Place.

    Thanks again,
    Dave
     
  4. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Dave

    I think you're reading the book correctly but, as I said above, the figures are wildly out when compared with the CWGC lists. There just can't be another 130 "missing" Glider Pilots that nobody has yet identified as such.

    John
     
  5. DPas

    DPas Member

    Thanks John. Appreciate the help.
     
  6. TomTAS

    TomTAS Very Senior Member

    Hi Dave,

    Have a look for yourself here you go....

    Cheers
    Tom
     

    Attached Files:

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  7. DPas

    DPas Member

    Thanks Tom.
     
  8. Pompey Pal

    Pompey Pal Member

    Hi Dave
    I think you'll find that the 228 killed 456 POW figure should actually have been a combined total for both 1 and 2 wing. I know that since publication of Glider Pilots at Arnhem there have been a few additions and a few corrections that Luuk has been made aware of. The Roll of Honour has 229 names
    For what is is worth my analysis has the following totals:-
    KIA 230 (86 in 1 wing and 144 in 2 wing)
    POW 459 (168+291)
    RAR 500 (206+294)
    Landed at Nijmegen - 45 - I know it's an odd number, but a couple of gliders with senior officers in did have three pilots
    False landings 50
    Evaders 5
    Escaped on Pegasus 2
    Don't know 1
    Grand total 1292

    I believe there are 1284 names in GP at A. Chatterton refers to 1338 GPs and Arie-Jan Hees has a figure of 1334, but this includes some wacos that were due to fly in a team to construct the airstrip and that never happened.

    I hope that helps.
    Kind regards
    Graham
     
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  9. DPas

    DPas Member

    Thanks Graham. Very helpful.
     
  10. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Graham

    I've got 24 GPR Evaders

    John
     
  11. Pompey Pal

    Pompey Pal Member

    Hi John
    Yes, I can understand that. Your 24 will include a number of the pilots that I've collated as FL. Some of the false landings will have been in the UK or allied territory, but a significant number were 'behind the lines' and will have therefore completed evader reports.
    I've done my split so as I can distinguish between those that evaded or escaped having landed at Arnhem and so anyone that didn't get that far, but crashed elsewhere I have as FL.
    Before you ask, no I haven't yet identified those amongst the POWs that were captured South of the Rhine as against those that were captured at Arnhem, but give me time and I'll get that splt as well.
    Thanks as ever for your input. Always greatly appreciated
    Kind regards
    Graham
     
  12. Ramon

    Ramon Senior Member

    667 gliders took of for arnhem, includes the waco and horsa for Nijmegen. This means 1332 pilots. So Arie Jan van Hees can be right. If some gliders had more pilots, then the pilots mentioned by Chatterton can be right. For the moment, I have 1323 names. Found, with help, some new files and on these files are some new names not in Gp at Arnhem. Have send these to luuk and he is working out the details.
     
  13. Ramon

    Ramon Senior Member

    Ofcourse mean 1334 pilots
     
  14. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Graham

    We'll discuss the finer points elsewhere but even allowing for your split described above I still have 10 GPR evaders that fought at Arnhem/Oosterbeek

    John
     
  15. Pompey Pal

    Pompey Pal Member

    Well done Ramon, that is excellent news.

    It reinforces what we know, that good though Glider Pilots at Arnhem is, there are still some names to be added and we all still await a definitive and complete list. I know for instance that my own list doesn't include all the pilots that flew to Nijmegen. There were 38 gliders, only 3 of which were lost, so one would expect 76 names, but I only have 45 listed as Nijmegen plus some in the casualties.

    Incidentally, is anyone aware if any of the pilots that were on any of the aborted missions that landed in the UK, or were rescued from the North Sea then being assigned to a different chalk on the next or following day? I know the majority of the gliders that landed in the UK were able to go again the next day and retained their original chalk number and load. But did anyone get allocated a new mission, particularly on the 19th, where the pairings for the Polish gliders included some mixed Flight combinations.

    I look forward with great interest to the details of the additional pilots.

    Kind regards Graham
     
  16. DPas

    DPas Member

    That is great Ramon. Can't remember who I was talking to about this (may have been Tom) but Reg Tugwell was not on the list at the back. If ever there was an aptonym for a Glider Pilot...

    I just Googled him now to see if I could find a service no for him and sadly I see his medals were up for sale.

     
  17. Pompey Pal

    Pompey Pal Member

    Thanks for posting the details on Reg Tugwell. Do you happen to know what chalk number he flew and the name of his co-pilot?
     
  18. DPas

    DPas Member

    I am afraid not Graham. I met him just shy of 20 years ago, and I am not that old!!!. Fantastic character all the same. Used to play football with me out in the back garden. Not at all useful for you, but a good memory for me!

    Given that he was a Standard Bearer and was at the 40th Anniversary in Arnhem (that is how Grandad and Mum met him), someone surely must have some information on him. Perhaps Steve or Steve can help.
     
  19. Pompey Pal

    Pompey Pal Member

    Blimey, that was quick!. Never mind, it is great that you had the good fortune to meet him. As you say, some of our GP experts may have the answer.
     
  20. DPas

    DPas Member

    Yes I count myself lucky, considering I grew up in Ireland. Got to meet Eric Matson of C Squadron too (he lived in Kinsale near where I grew up) but again I was very young and his speech was going at that point. He is listed in the back of GPs at Arnhem.
     

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