german tiger 131 commander?

Who was the german tank commander who had tiger 131 when it was captured

 

Apparently they are known, but not known about. Some years ago at Bovington the liason officer of the 504th was asked that question and his reply was basically "we don't talk about them, they abandoned their tank".

 

Ahhhhhhhh

 

Steelers

Bit unfair to not talk about them as they " abandoned their tank " the turret was jammed by the shot from the 48rtr making

the Tank useless for fighting - we also abandoned our Tank - but then it was being hit by an 88mm - and we had the idea that

it would also be useless for fighting - so out we went and watched it burn - kept us so busy that we forgot to ask the 88mm

crew's names…..
Cheers

 

Tom,

With all due respect there is a differance between a Sherman fired on by an 88mm and a Tiger with a jammed turret from a 6pdr shot, that in all other respects was still operable, and the abandoned tank remark was actually made by the 504 veteran(see below).

I'm having trouble remembering where i read it but some years ago I remember reading that the Tiger crew were told to stay put and await relief. The battle in which it was hit was a bit of a muddled affair apparently, 2 Churchills and a 6pdr AT gun had already been knocked out and there was German infantry and armour nearby to secure the relief of the Tiger, but against orders the crew decided to abandon it.

sPz Abt 504's war diary simply states "Crew members of Tiger 131 panic and abandon the tank after two harmless hits from a Churchill."

 

Steelers

Well - to my mind the Tiger Commander made the right call as the "Harmless" hit by one 6 pdr JAMMED his turret which meant

that all his enemies had to line up to the angle his gun was at to be classed as operable - don't know how many battles he

had been in enough though to know that NO one would line up to be shot at by an 88mm - I know it was a messy battle as we

didn't know whether it was "B" or "A" squadron of Churchills of 48RTR which did the damage…they were in our Brigade - and

does the 504's diary mention where this Infantry and Armour were when this Tiger 131 was picked up by North Irish Horse of

25th Tank bde to be sent to the UK...


You are assuming that the Tank we abandoned was a Sherman - with all due respect - it was class IV Churchill - and after six

hits by an 88mm - it went on fire along with four other Churchills which we watched burning while lying on the battlefield

for more than 8 hours as we were under fire while I tended a badly injured Gunner and a dying Commander - our Troop leader

had already been killed - it was not a good day - see my article Gothic Line -" Battle for San Martino " ….it's all there

on the BBC series below...

Cheers

 

Tom,

I was indeed assuming it was a Sherman, my mistake.

Who knows if any recovery attempt would have been succesful, i've never seen any detailed description of the battle to know where the Allied/German lines were in relation to the Tiger, but as it was standard procedure to try and recover them something may have been in hand to try as had happened previously, two Tiger I's were knocked out on February 1st on the Robaa road one was recovered in the night by the germans and the Royal Engineers blew up the second one to prevent the Germans recovering that one also.

von Poop,

I know about the other damage to the Tiger, but I suppose from a German point of view it was relatively undamaged and relatively safe at the time Considering German policy regarding Tiger I's at the time was that if recovery could not be affected the crew were to blow up the vehicle to prevent 'intact' capture by the Allies and considering, iirc, that a recovery/relief operation was in hand then the crew simply abandoning the tank would not go well down particularly well I suspect.

 

German crews leaving an intact tank is not all that uncommon. Stuart Hills book has 2 examples from EPSOM where a Tiger and Panther crew decided it was safer outside. The Tiger for sure was fully functioning and was shipped back to the UK for tests. I think the problem is most are accustomed to reading stories about Allied crews leaving their (weak and about to become a raging inferno)tanks after the first whisper of a Tiger or '88' being spotted 10 miles away whilst German crews laugh at the very idea a puny Allied shell can penetrate their invulnerable super-panzers.

 

Reading Bovingtons Tiger 131 diary they identified more damage than was previously known once the tank was stripped down.

A penetrating hole above the driver which had been welded and repaired at some time, when it was photographed later it had the wrong hatch cover (one from the co driver as the periscope was facing backwards)

Photo taken after return to UK

Damage above driver


Repair at some point in front of turret ring


Packing between the gun barrel and sleeve was damaged

Gun trunnion damaged




On the opposite side to the damaged trunnion is the balancing gear for the main gun, this was found to be damaged and assumed by the strike on the other side

Damage to loaders hatch


There was also 'shrapnel' damage to the wheels, turret bin, exhaust system

Also noted was the tracks were not both the same direction - the grouser leading on one track but trailing on the other - a problem with the design of the battle tracks being wider on the outside edge meaning they are not reversible



Images and quotes from The Tank Museum, Bovington

http://www.tiger-tank.com/

 

A close study of the photos of "131" leads me to conclude that it was abandoned in the pass on the north side of Djebel Jaffa. German armour retreated through the pass in the latter part of that day. British infantry secured the Djebel the next morning; the only chance to recover the Tiger was therefore during the night of 21-22 April, when the German armour had already retreated from the pass.

The demolition charges for a Tiger were usually kept in a storage box under the turret floor. To gain access to this box, it was necessary to turn the turret to face backwards. If the turret of "131" was jammed, it may imply that the crew could not fetch their demolition charges.

David