Hi guys, Thought i would share this with you all, it is a pencil and wash picture on very old paper (First World War Era). Written is German with a couple of dates (8.2.16 and 13.7.17) and i think one name possibly Muller. It is a study of the Iron Cross 2nd Class and the The Ottoman War Medal (Gallipoli Star). I am not over sure what this picture was intended for as it is very precise with measurments and small details. What are your thoughts? Donnie
Donnie, That looks to be a work of love by the artist, using great skill and an eye for finer details. Perhaps the Artist had been awarded the medals and he was conveying the description by painting if photography was not possible. Showing the cross section like that indicates to me the technical knowledge of an engineer of some sort. What ever it is, or was meant to be, I would frame it as it is a work of art in my eyes, coupled with Military History. It will be interesting to hear from others and I look forward to seeing this thread develop. Thanks for sharing. Regards Tom
Donnie; Not that I know jack about anything, but ..... That Really strikes me as a Designers work. Surely you too have seen the 'art' created by dress designers? What I've seen is pretty well identical in style and content. Gut reaction? My money's on that being some 'blue print' (for lack of a more proper term) that who ever designed the medal offered to who ever'd approve it. So; What aren't ye telling us?
Hi mate, I really have no idea about this picture. I only bought it because i collect First World War things and i really liked it.... Donnie
OMG! Ye own that?! Dear lord! Donnie; If I were you, I'd start digging like a badger into Who is actually credited with having designed those medals. I mean; Seriously. I've seen enough Patent design drawings in my time and a few other " Engineer " ~ again, for lack of the better word, but just as Tom suggests ..... Fiver says they Do turn out to be the original drafts for those medals. Of course, is it authentic and original? As in; Been around since early last century? Sounds like you know more about paper than I ever will. I'd love to hear the views of anyone else with experience or knowledge of these matters. But they've got me convinced.
Hi mate, The paper really does look like it is 90 odd years old if not more, in my mind it is 100% original......you think i might have something interesting and dare i say...exciting?..... Donnie
Like I say; It needs research. Ye should at least sort out what the names signify. Work with what ever clues the picture provides ye. Who's the resident medals expert? Perhaps when GWF get's back up and running ....? Fact is, I ~ until recently ~ have been a life long collector of old traps.That's where the familiarity with Patent drawings comes from. That's Not a Patent drawing. But, I Have seen that exact style used in explanatory diagrams. It's almost as if it's an artistic discipline of it's own. Like 'Technical Drawing', but again different. Thinking about it? You imply the question, 'Why no photo?' How about because there was nothing to photograph at that point? I'd suggest the designer was explaining to the artist what he wanted to demonstrate. And the artist, trained in that particular form of work, was creating images of what was in the designers head. I'm sorry I can't pin any of this down for ye. It's simply the impressions from my own head, after so many years barely registering just such work. GWF's sure to crack it for ye. Either way; It makes a lovely illustration. Great find!
I can't speak for the Turkish medal, but the design of that Iron cross way pre-dates WW1. All they did (in 1914) is change the date on the already in existance 1870 issue of the medal (actually, it's an 1871 issue, but it's dated 1870). The 1914 and 1870 medals were identical apart from the dates and so were the ribbons so I very much doubt that, (unless someone had a time machine prior to 1870 and knew a war would also break out in 1914) they're designer's drawings. The reverse predates even that - the 1870 and 1914 reverses were a replica of the 1813 issue obverse so nothing new there either. Possibly an explantory diagram for some new manufacturer? If this was the case though, I'd have thought that they'd have just issued them with an already in existance example. I do have a theory though - but it would make it just under 80 years old rather that 90... many banks and institutions in Germany had displays of replica Imperial awards made to a high degree of accuracy for display in the 1930s. Possibly a design for one of these? Then again, why the two dates? A mystery, but a nice piece nonetheless. dave.
Cheers guys for your opinions, Next to the W and 1914 drawn separately....do you think thats the artists signature?... Donnie
I think we need someone who can read a bit of German now, Donnie. Dave's done a great job on the detective work ~ that's the sort of thing I was wondering about, as I wouldn't recognise these medals if ye pinned them on me. I didn't even know which war they were from. But, with what Dave says in mind, I've just sat and gazed at the work again. It's hard, not being able to understand the notations, but I'm trying to put myself in the artists place. Why would I produce such a work? If I wanted to illustrate some pretty gongs? Fine. But I wouldn't be scribbling notes all over them and 'spoiling' them with arrows and measurements. No more than I'd do with a picture of an interesting trap. No. That's an " Illustration ". Not a 'simple work of art'. It was produced for a practical purpose, I reckon. And maybe Dave's guiding us closer to the truth? Now; Who do we know that can crack a bit of German? Fun this, isn't it? I love a good brain teaser
I have printed out a copy of the picture and will let my better half have a look at the scroll. As soon as we have it deciphered, I will post the result. Regards Tom
Donnie, The old German is proving hard for my better half, but her parents and brother are arriving in a day or so and so we will have more eyes and brains focused for you. Regards Tom
Many thanks mate for taking the trouble to sort this out. I look forward to your next post.... Donnie
All they did (in 1914) is change the date on the already in existance 1870 issue of the medal (actually, it's an 1871 issue, but it's dated 1870). The 1914 and 1870 medals were identical apart from the dates . just to reenforce my point - two EKII's from my collection (differing manufacturers) 1870 & 1914...
Your a sod mate .......no more please!......unless you will give one to me as a christmas present ?..... Donnie
