German entry to North Africa?

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by Skip, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Can anyone help with this ...

    I've read that German forces didn't arrive in N Africa until the spring of 1941 but were there any advisors, either Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe, that were there before this time?

    Any help greatly appreciated ...

    Cheers

    Skip
     
  2. JackGe

    JackGe Junior Member

    I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that a Ritter von Thoma visited North Africa in the fall of 1940. This was to make recommendations of what was required ... but with out the literature in front of me, can't say positively more.
     
  3. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Cheers JackGe - much appreciated.

    Would be great if anyone can confirm this and how large the German pre-spring 1940 presence was ...
     
  4. JackGe

    JackGe Junior Member

    Right, I've found the book, Afrikakorps by Roger James Bender.

    The Thoma visit wasn't any kind of combat force, he and his staff were there on one of those proverbial 'fact finding missions'. There is an interesting preamble describing how by mid-1940 it was realized the war on Britain had stalemated. By July 22, a five point program was put forth by generalfeldmarschall von Brauchitsch, which would expand the war in the Mediterranean. These included capturing Gibraltar, supporting Italy in NA with armour, attacking the British at Haifa, attacking the Suez Canal, or causing Russia to attack the Persian Gulf area.

    Thoma was sent to North Africa in what was termed a 'recon trip' to obtain a better understanding of the situation in that theater, as well as determining if Italy really needed their help. A preliminary report was sent on the 17th of October, indicating an overall state of confusion, lack of port facilities and vast distances to be covered in Libya.

    Thoma returned to Germany on October 24th, meeting Hitler in person. His main point to bring across here was that four Panzer divisions would be required for a successful campaign drive on the Suez. He also stressed four divisions was the limit with regards to supply. Hitler rejected this, stating only one would be available at this time. To this, Thoma proposed abandoning the whole campaign, as one Panzer division could do little with the present situation. This, of course, upset the Fuhrer.

    Plans for North African operations still continued, and it was estimated the first army units would be ready for shipment Dec. 1, 1940. These plans all unraveled with Italy's unannounced invasion of Greece on October 28.

    Skimming through the pages, there was a conference called by Hitler on February 3,1941. At it's end he did order the Luftwaffe to examine the possibility of committing dive bombers and twin engine bombers to NA. I don't see any more on this, so no idea if any Luftwaffe members/units were there before Rommel. He and his staff would land at Castel Benito on February 12th, and two days later the first German combat troops would arrive. February 24 would witness their first skirmish with British and Commonwealth forces.


    regards,
    Jack
     
  5. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Jack
    Rommel and his stripped down Afrika Korps entered the N.A. Campaign at El Ageila after the small British force had wiped out a

    whole Italian Army at Beda Fomm , and caused as much damage as he did a year later after Crusader when the British were out of

    supplies and at the end of their supply chain at Gazala in the May of '42 - this led to the firing of Auchinlek and Ritchie and

    Monty taking over in the August and giving Rommel his first bloody nose at Wadi Alam Halfa - Rommel never recovered from that

    battle… and by Medenine he had been fired and back in Austria…

    Cheers
     
  6. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Jack & Tom,

    Thanks very much indeed for this. Very interesting indeed. Had no idea about Thoma's recce.

    All the best

    Skip
     
  7. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    It's a detail (or just me nagging):
    The Luftwaffe was part of the Wehrmacht, the latter including Heer, Luftwaffe and Marine :)
     
  8. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Kriegsmarine.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
    Heimbrent likes this.
  9. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Heimbrent and Andreas - thanks for putting me straight on this. Refinement of knowledge is what it's all about ...

    Cheers
     
  10. fishdish

    fishdish Member

    "Posted 25 June 2011 - 02:31 PM
    Does anyone have, or know where I can get, a wartime map of Benghazi and the surrounding area (Bengasi 1:500,000 or 1:250,000)? I am trying to plot wartime events onto a modern map from wartime grids that I have with little success.

    Any hints or help greatly appreciated. Cheers"

    Hello Skip,
    I spotted this post and wondered if you still have the wartime grids mentioned. I am engaged on the same sort of project and wondered if I could help. I am in fact a surveyor/cartographer working in Marsa Brega right now and am interested in the period January to April 1941 in Cyrenaica. The old maps are a tad inaccurate by today's standards but if the correct map projections, ellipsoids and grids are used (not easy) it's the best place to kick off. I have recently sussed out the original Libya grid which I believe most artillery plans were based on. In my research I have noticed a number of references to "inaccurate maps" by various participants of the time.
     
  11. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Hello Fishdish,

    Cheers for your post - I'm actually specifically interested in the place names and their locations that would have appeared on 1942 maps of the Benghazi area. If I had a wartime map I would be able to cross-reference those locations with modern maps and have a better idea of movements - unfortunately I'm still looking for such a large-scale map.

    Hope Marsa el Brega is quiet!

    All the best

    Skip
     
  12. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

  13. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    David - thanks very much. These will help in general terms and are much appreciated.

    Does anyone know if there is a British wartime map equivalent, either for North Africa, Italy or North West Europe?

    Cheers

    Skip
     
  14. fishdish

    fishdish Member

    UK-Med-II-2.jpg Hello Skip,

    I came across this site and viewed a few of the maps in preview mode and was able to glean some info without purchasing. Not sure if it will benefit you or not. Worth a gander I suggest.
    I too am having difficulty with place names, spellings and locations. Attached is a map I'm sure you've seen before. I can help you out presenting it in Google Earth if you like.


    Brega is quiet... - not like Tripoli last Wednesday when I passed the Corinthia Hotel!


    Italian version of OSGB I think :- http://www.igmi.org/ancient/cerca.php?mode=naz&cod=3

    Cheers
     
  15. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Skip.

    I have other map links I could post if you want.

    I chose the one I originally posted as it is 1954 therefore most likely the best for you. Let me know...

    Best wishes,

    David.



    Fishdish.

    Thanks for posting that link, I hadn't got that one!
     
  16. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Fishdish - cheers for the jpeg and for the Italian link. Very useful indeed as they show a lot of the wadi's and how the port and area around Benghazi developed. Know what you mean about Tripoli - I'm not there any more but last time I visited the war cemetery I was shot at (not the only place btw). The local gardener had his ear defenders on and was still happily mowing the lawns wondering why I was lying down!

    David - yes please to any other links - always useful and like I say i'm interested in other theatres too.

    Very grateful to both of you

    Cheers

    Skip
     
  17. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

  18. fishdish

    fishdish Member

    Picked up in Marsa Brega/Agheila areas in the 1980's. Any comments?

    goslar close.jpg

    WWIIjerrycanElAgheila.jpg
     
  19. JackGe

    JackGe Junior Member

    Cool mementos of your trip to Marsa Brega/Agheila.

    Neckchain must be the coat of arms of Goslar, but appears to be the name of both a town and German district?

    regards,
    Jack
     
  20. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    There were a few Luftwaffe units with a Goslar connection, there was a busy military airfield.

    The Jerrycan is for petrol (Kraftstoff).

    All the best

    Andreas
     

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