German airburst fuzes?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Chris C, Sep 22, 2019.

  1. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Hi all,

    Did German artillery actually have airburst fuzes for their shells in Normandy or later in Northwest Europe?
     
  2. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Can you specify what you mean by airburst? German artillery was certainly using airburst in WW1 let alone WW2 but this was done with timers. Are you actually referring to proximity fuzes?
     
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  3. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Well, whatever they would use to try to cause the shells to burst above ground level (i.e. vs infantry in trenches). I didn't know about timed fuzes. I think I tried looking up proximity fuzes and became unclear as to whether the Germans developed them in WW2 or not.
     
  4. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Are you familiar with Artillery Shells.
    A 25 pdr Shell is not unlike a 2 litre pop bottle in size with a cap on the end for percussion (removed before loading) or a cone with markings around it for fused.
    The percussion is set off by a button on the end of the shell when it strikes something or fused which are set with a special tool by the crew, to a time calculated by the CPO or GPO for the flight time of the shell. Whether it be High Explosive or Smoke the shell can be set to explode in the air or under the ground and corrections made according to the FOO or OP Officers observations. I think most Artillery shells are the same irrespective of nationality.
    There were a number of fatalities in 1944 due to shells exploding in the gun. This was because the percussion shell had a safety device, a ball bearing in a sprung chamber which came out when the shell spun up the rifling of the gun arming the shell. On 0ccassions it came free during transport and went off if the loader hit the breech with the percussion cap (easily done in a hurry).
    The timed fuse could aslo explode in the gun but tended to burst the barrel in front of the gun shield and the crew could survive (Shaken but not Stirred).
    On occasions the crews would fire at close range against armoured vehicles with Charge 3 or Supercharge with percussion shells leaving the protection cap on. This was a screw on top not unlike a pop bottle cap made with aluminium. This only occurred if they were caught by surprise i.e. at night as at Banana Ridge in Tunisia where 446 Bty destroyed a Mk111 Panzer at 5 to 7 Yards. Another hazard was a "Bad Ram" where the shell was rammed home in the breech in a crooked position causing it to corkscrew in flight often resulting in the shell dropping short.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  5. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Erm no There was no button on the end of the shell, (except in Loony Tunes cartoons) the percussion fuse detonated when a sudden deceleration triggered the mechanism. The issue you describe sounds like the problem encounters in 1916/17 - what is your source? Britain and America developed a proximity fuse that could detect when the shell was approaching the ground and than explode. It was radar based. These shells were introduced about the end of 1944 and were highly effective as the Germans discovered during their Ardennes offensive. The Allies got there first because Britain was ahead in radar technology and they concentrated on one development track. Germany failed because they had a number of development tracks each one sponsored by a Nazi grandee. It's possible that some were used in the April/May 1945 period.
     
  6. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    25 Pdr Firing in Italy December 1944 with one of them Loony Tune buttons on the nose.
    From a family album.
    Radar was still in development in most theatres of war mostly used to try replace flash spotting to pinpoint the source of incoming fire for counter battery fire.
    The percussion shells 1944 manufacture were used by the TA units on 25pdrs in the 1960's. As were mechanical fuses.
    267 Field Regt disbanded in 1969. Many more even Regulars used them as did the Irish Army.
    You will find many books and websites to confirm their use. They were simple and highly effective and were not affected by Nuclear electro magnetic pulse.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Yes there were percussion fuses as if you'd read my post completely you might have seen but they were not a button on the nose - the fuse did not depend on direct impact but on deceleration as I said. A fuse that depended on knocking the nose would have been highly dangerous to the users.
     
  8. Juha

    Juha Junior Member

    Yes, Germans used time fuzes. At lest 88s mechanical one. Not sure what their field artillery used but either mechanical or powder-burning time fuzes.
     
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  9. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    OK, thanks, I just wanted to be sure of that!
     
  10. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Writing (from memory) in 1947 Pickert makes a specific reference to clockwork fuses in Normandy and his Flak Korps did not use them for ground bombardments.

    Screenshot_341cvgcvcvc.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
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  11. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Robert, my experience is very limited with 25 pounders but I have had some training with 267 Field Regt as a senior cadet on survey and signals. After passing "Cert A" we were allowed to go for Technical Training across the yard to HQ Battery who had no guns but we did meet up with them occasionally on weekend camps. Several of the men, mostly senior NCO's had served in 67 Field Regt in the war so I was familiar with Banana Ridge, Medjez el Bab, Anzio and The Gothic Line. They were very sensitive to how the ammunition was handled as on at least one occasion a gun crew was killed when a percussion fuse detonate on the breech of a gun. This should not have happened as there are safety devices to prevent it but it was deemed that the Ammunition had been affected during transport. During discussions and "dry training" they were very quick to point out that you must not hit the breech with the shell when loading incase it was a bad one. They were all 1944 manufacture.
    I am not sure what experience you might have with Artillery so have posted these links.
    Ordnance QF 25-pounder - Wikipedia
    You are sort of right: The standard fuze was No 117 direct action (DA). No 119 (DA and graze) was also used. Combustion or mechanical time fuzes were used with base ejection shells and mechanical time with graze were used with HE. Proximity fuzes were used from the end of 1944 and subsequently replaced by CVT fuzes.
    Contact fuze - Wikipedia
    Hope that this helps re percussion (Direct Action) fuses.
    However new types were not so quick to be issued except in priority areas of which NW Europe had maximum priority.
    They were still using these shells in the late 1960's.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
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  12. Juha

    Juha Junior Member

    Hello M Kenny
    very interesting, in books I have read, not so many on Normandy but anyway several, they tell on airbursts.I have thought that many of them were 88 fire as that was what the British supposed. So either some 88 batteries ignored the ban (IMHO entirely possible), Pickert made a mistake (IMHO not very likely because this is a rather fundamental fact), or all airburst were fired by field arty.
     
  13. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    It seems that the Germans never caught up with Variable Time Fuze technology so must have been using traditional methods which were still in use twenty years after the war.
    I am surprised that electronic components were able to withstand the mechanical shock of being fired from a gun and always regarded them as new technology for self powered guided missiles.
    Proximity fuze - Wikipedia
    Once they matched this technology with the German Rockets we were in another world so to speak.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  14. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    This is one of those subjects that I will confess confuses me somewhat. There are plenty of accounts to be found of 'air burst' shells being used by German forces. There's also the US VT (variable time) fuze as mentioned above, which I have heard praised as being the 'only' means of delivering air burst. Can't both be right so I've always meant to look into it, in case I'm missing the point.

    On the German side there does appear to be a divide between what howitzers and guns of the artillery proper fired, and what the Flak guns could. There's an account here (from Aug 1942) of how it was reckoned the already suspected 88-mm could be used to fire air burst;

    http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt08/air-burst-ground-targets.html

    There's also reference in an August 1943 US publication, Military reports on the United Nations (No.9), Military Intelligence Service. This includes the results of a British survey of a New Zealand Inf Bde in 1942 as to which enemy weapons had the greatest impact on morale, with German air burst getting 15.6%. So they were definitely delivering such fire, but it appears not from 10.5-cm or 15-cm howitzers.

    Without digging I think the RA was also well practised in delivering air burst with the 3.7-in AA gun against ground targets.

    The US had at least two mechanical time fuzes, the M43 series and the M67 series. The M43 could be timed from 0.8 to 30 seconds and could be fitted in selected 3-inch, 90-mm and 105-mm shells. The M67 looks to have been for larger calibre shells, 155-mm, 8-inch and 240-mm and had a maximum 75 second delay.

    And to add another vague thought, I think I've heard it mentioned that artillery shells could be detonated by impacting thick canopies of woods or jungle, giving an unintended air burst effect.

    Gary
     
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  15. Juha

    Juha Junior Member

    British 25-pdr had time fuzes, both powder-burning and mechanical time fuzes.
    British powder-burning time fuzes were considered suitable only for smoke and flare shells being too impresis for reliably bursting HE shells 10 m over ground, which was optimal for HE airburst. Maybe German powder-burning time fuzes were little more precis.
    Even with mechanical time fuzes under 66% of 25-pdr HE shells exploded 10 m over ground.
    With VT fuzes some 90% of shells exploded at right height and that made Allied air burst so effective in Ardennes.
    Maybe German mechanical time fuzes were more precis than British, entirely possible, or Germans calculate that under 66% rate was adequate. I can easily believe that even too high air burst easily forced tank commnders inside their turrets.

    Air bursting was not new in itself, shrapnel ammo was used from late 18th century into WWI British used some even in WWII at least in Burma IIRC.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  16. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Mist over Dartmoor

    Time to go so one last word methinks.
    Attached paragraph Florence 2nd Sept 1944.
    Ref HAA used as artillery effects of airburst. HAA Airburst.jpg
     
  17. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    In light of what people are saying in the thread, I guess if they were German shells, the woods might have slowed the shells down enough to cause detonation. I saw this referred to as "treeburst" in one document I was looking at today.
     
  18. hutt

    hutt Member

    I think treeburst refers to them being timed to detonate in the tree canopy, the term used sometimes if describing firing into a wooded area as opposed to open ground.
     
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  19. Juha

    Juha Junior Member

    Treeburst happened also with common percussion fuzes, of course depending how sensitive/quick the fuzes were. Because trees have different heights they made artillery support problematic at attack phase because the risk of treebursts over own troops. One reason why mortars are so useful in forest fighting, its bombs came down in steep angle so risk to harm own troops is smaller. We were trained to take into consideration treebursts when choosing our defensive positions. Treeburst are nasty because besides shell fragments it prodused wood splinters which are nasty and could be deadly as all who had seen those sailing ship era films know.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
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  20. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Thanks guys, I hadn't thought of shells timed to detonate in the trees.
     

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