FV4101 Charioteer - marking request

Discussion in 'Modelling' started by greenbaron, Jul 5, 2010.

  1. greenbaron

    greenbaron Member

    Well chaps, I am about to start painting my 1/35 Tamiya Cromwell tank converted (resin castings by Accurate Armour) to FV4101 Charioteer TD. There is no marking option provided with the kit and my search for "in service" pictures returned none pics with readable marking. I want to mark my Charioteer (armed with 20 Pdr with "A" barrel) as a vehicle serving with British Army.
    I have read the article on Charioteer in Wheels and Tracks so I am familiar with all the pics of tested vehicles as provided there, I have seen some pics of Charioteers serving with the Middle East armies (Jordan at least), PLO and Austrian Heer but that is not what I am after.
    The only picture I have found is in the New Vanguard Cromwell book but in fact complete marking is a puzzle for me again.

    Could anybody share his knowledge or even pictures?
     
  2. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    Charioteer has been a challenge. Not many pictures available, this is all I could find.

    [​IMG]

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    as for the markings of the bottom picture, the 'bulled up' one with the white wall tyres. I think that is the one you mentioned from the New Vanguard Cromwell book.
    I can see the post war (1949) VRM (Vehicle Registration Mark) of 00ZW3? the ZW indicates one of a group of codes given to WW2 vintage armoured vehicles. Another of the pictures shows 01ZW29. The numbers are best understood as a four digit code, ignoring the letters, beginning 00??00 to 00??99, before they change to 01??00 to 01??99.

    The red over yellow bisected square AOS flash of the post war Royal Armoured Corps can be seen, here with a white 2 superimposed.
    On the far side it looks like the Liver bird of 23rd Armoured Brigade.
    A bridge classification disc, possibly 40 on a yellow circle can be seen on the glacis.
    There is also a triangle on the turret indicating 1st Squadron. There may be a troop number inside the triangle, but I can't make it out.
     
  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  4. greenbaron

    greenbaron Member

    Thanks lads for your answers, special thanks goes to Bodston for his brilliant picture analysis. :salut:
    I didn't expect such complex answer to come so quickly.
    Honestly I was not able to zero-in my Eyeball o_O Mk. 1 to AoS to recognize No.2 on RAC colours background.
    You took the advantage of Hi-Res picture and that is great!

    I will try to mix and paint my Charioteer Deep Bronze Green (too many parades to sport old coat of SCC 15) and will use this marking of 46 RTR. Driver's head will be seen through his peephole in the glacis plate and the bloke in the turret hatch (in the right one) will be dressed in a non camoed Pixie Suit. I am sure, it is appropriate for relatively long postwar period.

    That is all I wanted to know, thank you again.

    I have more such tricky questions in my "ammo pouch" so next time I will not hesitate to ask for answers.
     

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  5. Bodston

    Bodston Little Willy

    greenbaron, no problem on the photo analysis. Feel free to ask again.
    As for mixing British Deep Bronze Green, why not try the Hannants paint in either acrylic or enamel I have used the Xtracrylix and it goes on very nicely. Good colour too.

    Also the triangle on the turret is likely to be yellow.

    I love the marking schematic by the way. I wish I could manipulate computers like that. Are you able to print your own transfers?
     
  6. greenbaron

    greenbaron Member

    Oh yes, I can see there is no colour/shade difference between that yellow bridge classification mark and tactical symbol - so the "A" triangle must be yellow, too.
    Printing decals? Not me but friend of mine can print them so that could be done easily including white markings.
    I prefer more traditional way and spray marking with use of metal stencils (made by Eduard - ID, AD and ArmBdes formation signs, AoS and serials, bridging signs, tactical symbols etc.) or stencils made of masking tape. I use printed decals only when necessary or when they are too complicated for stencilling.
    I use typewriter correction tape or papers and decal paper for hand made "chalked" writing (embarkation notes etc.).
     
  7. Dutchy3RTR

    Dutchy3RTR Junior Member

    Hi, I hope you don't mind my resurrecting this thread, but I'm building the exact same Accurate Armour conversion right now and found this info very useful, thanks.

    One thing though - I think the Vanguard book may have miscaptioned that parade photo. 46RTR weren't around post 1946 as they were placed into suspended animation in Apr/May that year. Apparently they were subsequently resurrected in 1947, but as a RA Heavy AA Regt, not RAC.

    Could it rather be a 40RTR Charioteer? I know they and 41RTR were both in 23 Armd Bde from 1947 until their amalgamation in 1956.
     
  8. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Bodston...

    [​IMG]

    ....you don't happen to know where this was taken???
     
  9. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Phylo,

    It could well be this factory in Cheshire as I cannot find any more clues.

    Robinson and Kershaw Ltd, Cheshire.

    FV4101, Charioteer

    Photos of the Factory Shop floor look similar.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  10. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Tom, thanks for that, I hadn't noticed the comment about Robinson and Kershaw Ltd in the Wiki article :(

    It's taken a bit of Googling to get any further...but whoever "Robinson and Kershaw Ltd" were, that's an old (locomotive) engine house by the look of it....and R&K seem to have owned/run the LNER loco/wagon/carriage works at Dukinfield, now in Greater Manchester...

    Aha! From Wiki...

    Samuel Robinson a Unitarian, industrialist and scholar founded the village library in 1833 and was dubbed the "foremost promoter of education in the district" before his death in 1884. Daniel Adamson a mechanical engineer became the first chairman of the Manchester Ship Canal Company. He owned an engineering works producing Lancashire boilers at Newton Wood beside the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway.


    ...and lo and behold...

    [​IMG]

    ..a whole ALBUM of pics of Dukinfield! Home / Albums / Dukinfield Wagon Works part of the Great Central Railway | PJBrailwayphotos Photo Gallery
     
  11. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Hmmm....doing some more searching, it looks like the Dukinfield Works was owned/run by Metropolitan Vickers during WWII, it was used as a munitions works. Wonder if it was them who ripped up/filled in the old track runs...although after the war it reverted to locomtive manufacture
     
  12. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Phylo,

    When I first saw the photograph I immediately thought of a Heavy Engineering factory, possibly a Locomotive factory as several were turned over for Tank production during the war.

    In my home town of Preston, the Valentine Tank was produced by English Electric, who produced Electric motors and Electric Locomotives.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  13. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    possibly a Locomotive factory as several were turned over for Tank production during the war.

    That's why I went searching for a loco works connection ;) The remains of the overhead crane in the picture...
     
  14. pjbrailwayphotos

    pjbrailwayphotos Junior Member

    Dukinfield C & W Works was built in 1906-1910 by the Great Central Railway taken over by the L N E R in 1923 and again by British Railways in 1948.Part of the works was used by Metro-Vicks in the 1950s to build Electric Locos for the Woodhead Route and Locos for Irish Railways,
    Robinson and Kershaws were in another part of the works in the 1950s rebuilding tanks I remember the yard at the West end of the works being full of armoured cars the year was about 1962 must have been 40 in total
     

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  15. rick wedlock

    rick wedlock Member

    hi folks

    came across this thread while researching the charioteer factory.

    i converted my charioteer back to cromwell spec a couple of years ago and i'm now doing the same for an america fella that loves his british armour. i hadn't realised they were made in dukinfield i live 2 miles from the old factory and my yard where the tank is kept is even closer still.
    it amazes me to think this tank has been to jordan, lebanon (plo) egypt and israel (captured in the 6 day war) and by shear chance has now ended up back where it was built.

    it's a funny old world
     

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  16. Phil Robinson

    Phil Robinson New Member

    Hi all

    Not sure if my first post has been added but...

    I am the Grandson of Charles George Robinson (1878-1933) the founder of Robinson & Kershaw in Manchester. He died when my father was 14 years of age and my father passed a file to me with many records and photographs of the factory and the work undertaken. I will try again to attach PDF's of the documents I have but I am restricted to size so if any one is interested I will post more - if I am able !

    The Company built a lot of the steel structures in Manchester but I didn't know it went on to build Tanks.

    Obviously if anyone is interested I will try to post some more history on the Company.

    Kind Regards
    Phil Robinson View attachment Robinson & Kershaw 2.pdf Robinson%20&%20Kershaw%20Foden.1.JPG
     
  17. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Phil,

    Hello and welcome to the Forum.

    You will find that there are many Forum members interested in Railway and Tanks and any further Information would be most welcome.

    Your PDF link was interesting reading.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  18. Phil Robinson

    Phil Robinson New Member

    Thanks Tom - nice to be on board.
    I will submit more info.....

    Regards
    Phil
     
  19. Phil Robinson

    Phil Robinson New Member

    View attachment Robinson & Kershaw 3.pdf
    Hi again.

    Well I have attached one more PDF Files concerning my Grandfathers Company "Robinson & Kershaw" again prior to WW11. I am not sure if this is the correct area to post these but as reference has been made to the Company concerning the later production of FV4101 Charioteer TD I hope it is OK..
    Another file will follow. I am not sure how many buildings are still standing but I know Manchester Grammar School is still there and possibly the building which used to be the Manchester and County Bank in Piccadilly Manchester.

    Regards
    Phil
     
  20. Phil Robinson

    Phil Robinson New Member

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