From one "veteran" to any other

Strictly from one "veteran" to any other and posed with the utmost respect:

Before we all move on to other spheres, there is one question I have been dying to ask and only other veterans can supply the answer (although non-veterans are, of course, free to comment).

Firstly, and speaking strictly from my own experience.

To the best of my memory I can recall only two episodes in the whole of my army career when someone of significant rank explained to me either what was going on in the area of battle to which my unit was committed or/and where we stood in the grand picture of history in the making.

The first episode took place in Rieti in Northern Italy and I refer to my diaries:

Tuesday 19th December 1944
Tank recognition by models in the Intelligence Room. All afternoon spent in ABCA (Army Bureau of Current Affairs) room talking about "what to do with the Germans after the war!"

The second episode was immediately after the war in Europe:

Wednesday 2nd. May 1945
Jerry threw his hand in Italy and Austria. Fired all our 2" mortars, phosphorous bombs and verey lights and had bonfires all over the shop.
Cease fire about 11 pm. ( At noon today the Germans signed an unconditional surrender at Caserta)

Within days the whole regiment was summoned on parade by the CO who addressed us as follows:
"As you know the war in Europe is now over, and I suppose most of you are looking forward to seeing your loved ones again after years spent overseas. I must tell you, however, that there is an SS Cavalry Division in Austria at the moment who refuse to cease fighting and our regiment has been given the honour of going up there and persuading them that it would be a good idea on their part to surrender to us."

The question, dear fellow veterans, is this:

Did you ever really know what was going on around you or did you, just like me, follow orders, keep your head down and hope for the best ?.

Look after yourselves and keep taking the tablets

Ron

 

Nice question Ron. I can only relate what my father told me. He was much the same as you. He recalled only being told / explained to about his part in the attack at Alamein, the attack on Schijndel Holland where all ranks were instructed with the aid of the sand table, and in Germany when he was a Discipline officer at Westertimke camp, guarding a 1000 SS and 2000 Whermacht.
He always said that war was mostly fought on a intimate level, i.e. your section, platoon, or company, with you and your closest mates being the only relevant things. Hardly ever knowing what other companies were upto or facing.
A case in point is me witnessing an argument between some Cameron vets. Attacking the brickworks at Im Lohr, 1 vet said there was very little fighting. my father and 3 others nearly tore him to bits. They said if he thought that , he could not have been there. Having been there I spoke to a old lady who told me that the wounded, 27 of them, were treated in her front garden, she even came out when she saw the vets blue hackle asking "you Cameron"? Bless her, she was full of tears.

 

Hi Ron.
You are dead right.... During my time from Normandy, till I left on the German border we were never told anything. bar one instance:
The Goodwood battles.
Our officer had us in a group and told us (In bad grace) what was about to happen and what we were to do. That was interrupted by the sound of an approaching Panzer. Down the road came a Sherman, then a Panther, another Sherman. All three in line It appeared they had captured the Panther and its crew intact.
That was the only time we knew what was on ..Though I expect like you, we soon became very conversant with what was going on.
Best Regards Ron.
Not many of us handsome young fellows left
Sapper

 

Hi Ron,

Churchill units in the Mediterranean Theatre with the role as Infantry Support its was the norm that tank crews be "put in the picture" to quote one of our Squadron Leaders. So much so, the NIH operated on what we called the "Dawnay Doctrine" - summarised as follows.


<CENTER></CENTER>
Lieutenant Colonel (later Major-General Sir) David Dawnay was, without doubt, the most experienced commander of Infantry Tank Units during his illustrious Military Career.

His strategic concepts, founded in the UK and honed to perfection in Tunisia as CO of the North Irish Horse, were well proven in actions in which Churchill tanks took part. The basic rules were clearly spelled out and understood by all ranks.

• 1. Never forget the Regiment's role is to assist ground troops in every way possible.
• 2. Unless circumstances dictated otherwise, not to go into action without first conducting joint field training.
• 3. Explain straightforwardly to Infantry commanders what the Churchills could do or not do in a given situation.
• 4. All ranks, prior to and during training, to establish a rapport with their Infantry counterparts.
• 5. Never leave an Infantry unit hanging out to dry. Should the circumstances be such that 'A' Echelons are unable to reach tanks, then tanks may move back one (or in small groups) at a time and, when replenished return to enable the next tank/s to do the same.
• 6. If, for exigency reasons, the ground troops are be left alone, their commanders must be fully appraised as to the reasons why,

Simply put, tank crews had to know "What the hell was happening" should officer's tanks be put out of action.

All the best, Gerry

PS Thanks Ron for your kind remarks in another posting. As I am so busy getting my site in a form to meet the needs of a publisher I will be meeting soon, although I access the Forum daily, my postings have been few of late.

 

Ron;
In my months in combat. I cant remember anyone telling me anything. Whenever we went into attack I was told to make sure the CO had communication.

 

My father was a Japanese POW , but he said that once he heard the Americans were in the war he knew the Allies would win .
He said that the Thai merchant , Boon Pong , agreed to supply the British POW's and to receive payment at the end of the war because he knew that the Allies would win .
That was probably the extent of his "knowing" whilst he was a prisoner .
After the war , he understood why he had been sent , on his own , from Ceylon to Singapore . He believed that so many of the troops in Singapore were Australian and Indian that Churchill needed to get as many British troops as possible into Singapore , before it fell , so that it wouldn't look so bad .
Once he arrived , noone knew anything about him or why he was there . He spent the first 2 weeks with Australian naval men , driving around the city . When they sailed they suggested he go with them since there was noone aware of or interested in his presence .
I sometimes wonder what it must have been like in those last days , to have no connection to any group , whilst everything fell apart .

 

Guys,

My Father was told not to worry about the war because he was told that he was not expected to last beyond his first 6 missions. Different lines, different theatres, l am sure, but they got on with it anyway.

Regards,

Nick

 

I wll remember just before embarking on our L.C.T being gathered round and shown maps of our intending landing area ,tghe only thing was that all the locations were given "code" names i.e Birmingham glasgow etc . So although we did know what the area looked like on a map we still hadn,t been told \where/ It weasn,t until we were ashore and I was able to try out my school-boy french that we found out where in France we had landed!!!
Bernard berjay

 

I can go along with Gerry as we had the same Brigadier- Dawney - during the Liri Valley battles and afterwards and every day - as operators we were "filled in" when getting the "frequencies" and spread the same words to the rest of the crews - at the Gothic line we often had the 3d glasses over the map of the areas so we could see the type of ground we would be going over - it worked- no one got lost ! - but we were always in a bigger picture than many on this thread..

Then there was the meeting with Major John Pine-Coffin who was asking for "volunteers" so four of us were wafted down to Oxford University - signed the Official Secrets act - still didn't know what it was all about when I was RTU'd - until I met Bob Cross in Rome in hospital blues - minus one leg - he had been parachuted into Yugoslavia with Brigadier McClean's mob on the Tito's mission - said he was lucky in only losing a leg - couldn't find it anywhere - he said !
Cheers

 

Then there was the meeting with Major John Pine-Coffin
Cheers

Hi Tom,

I thought you may have been having a lend of us with the name (Pine-Coffin) so I looked up the CWGC site and found one there.

In Memory of
Sergeant GEOFFREY TRISTRAM PINE-COFFIN

568487, 102 Sqdn., Royal Air Force
who died age 24
on 14 July 1943
Son of William and Emily Pine-Coffin; husband of Bridget Pine-Coffin, of Chelsea, London.
Remembered with honour
MAUBEUGE-CENTRE CEMETERY

Rest in Peace.

He is just a few graves away from an Aussie of 626sq.

Cheers

Geoff

 

Spidge -

could be a cousin as they were a big aristocratic family - the John I referred to was the brother of Geoffrey and who both finished up as Lt Cols. teaching at the Defence School at Old Sarum near Salisbury along with two other of my friends - Grp Captain John Kilduff C.B.E. and Wing Co. Peter Walker A.F.C. - don't know if much work was done there as they all knew how to party !.... just thought I would drop a few names onto the thread .....
Cheers

 

Spidge -

could be a cousin as they were a big aristocratic family - the John I referred to was the brother of Geoffrey and who both finished up as Lt Cols. teaching at the Defence School at Old Sarum near Salisbury along with two other of my friends - Grp Captain John Kilduff C.B.E. and Wing Co. Peter Walker A.F.C. - don't know if much work was done there as they all knew how to party !.... just thought I would drop a few names onto the thread .....
Cheers

In Australia they usually "slang" a coffin as a "Pine Box". Some of the names I have come across have left me speechless.

Cheers

Geoff

 

Spidge -
John Pine Coffin was the C.O. of 7th Para batt which landed to reinforce Major John Howard at Pegasus Bridge on D day - before Lovatts man got there-his men called him the "Wooden Box" - out of ear shot I would imagine..... as I said they were very big old family- they are all over the place - and one of them is living in Melbourne - she still carries her Pine Coffin name....try them on Wiki ...

Cheers

 

Tom,

I came across a young lad in the RAAF who is buried at Chester Blacon:

DEATH, ERNEST NORMAN
Sergeant
424741
27 O T U
10/09/1943
19
Royal Australian Air Force
Australian
Sec. A. Grave 415.
CHESTER (BLACON) CEMETERY

http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/AWM108/004/004985.pdf


Rest in Peace Ernest!

 

Hi Ron. As far as I can remember apart from the D-Day briefing, even then code words were used like 'Morris' and 'Hillman', we were told Sweet FA. For some time I was with a radio with a Bofors forward to warn and protect Austers spotting for HMS Rodney and had to suss it out myself. Then I went to Intelligence and it got no better.
Maybe they thought 'ignorance is bliss'.
Keep taking the tablets Ron.
Cheers

Jim

 

I had the pleasure to meet with 4 of my dads 2FOU pals.
We were sat having a cuppa me listening to their anicdotes(who was where,who saw what)
One who i was sat next to leant towards me and whispered" i sometimes wonder if i was in the same war as them,none of this is familiar to me".
Bear in mind their unit consisted of about 130 men and officers and they were all on the same operation(Varsity)
Its always stayed with me how different the experience could be.
I guess thats what they mean when they talk of the fog of war?

 

Driver op Mate. Did you see the little Auster RA spotter, that got to close to the Naval barrage trajectory, and vanished in a puff of smoke?
Sapper

 

Oh Yeah,you would want to get your map ref right!!!!

 

From one veteran to any other


As you know we were completely in the dark concerning official news but there was a place where you got the latest griff as it was called in those days and that was in the bog although it was entertaining nine times out of ten it was a load of codswallop if we happened to be near Company HQ they had a seven seater and it was a revelation I
hope I don’t go too far off thread in describing it but it was trench about six feet deep and about ten feet long a forty five gallon drum at each end lying on their side and a scaffold plank along the top placed strategically so you never got any Richard the thirds on the back of your boots they all went into the pit a wall of scrim netting around this Heath Robinson contraption and you have a loo with seven seats but the secret was don’t get the middle seat because with the comings and goings of the blokes either side of you you could be airborne most of the time while trying to commune with nature.
One time when the Division was pulled out of the line a rumour went round we were going home to help on the second front so our regiment went by train to the port of Taranto and in a few days we were in Egypt sampling the delights of Quassasin the sweet water canal Shafto’s cinemas Stella beer and a multitude of young Arab boys talking in a Scottish accent a legacy left by the 51st highland Division that had been stationed there for a considerable length of time before going home to be on the second front so the moral of the story is don’t believe anything you hear even if it came from the proverbial horses mouth


Typed with tongue in cheek but true

Regards Niccar

 

Niccar -
Your seven holer was nothing compared to our hand finished four holer facing the Atlas mountains and was a joy first thing in the a.m.- until that is we were fed dehydtrated meat......

-- 3 --
It was decreed from on high in the Army Kitchens in the U.K. that we would enjoy the delights of a new development which had the main benefit of conserving space in the Merchant Navy ships to allow the storage of even more ammunition and guns in the sea passage from home. We would therefore have served a sufficient quantity of "Dehydrated Meat", true enough - this was "enjoyed " at least, the Orderly Officer heard NO complaints, but then he was a very big, burly, South African International Rugby player who never did get many complaints ! Major Christopher Newton-Thompson.M.C. died in May 2002.
Later that evening, when the sun was wending it's way towards Morocco, it was noticed that our showcse latrine was quite busy and very soon became a veritable stampede with most trying "to get there in time" - many didn't, which was not too pleasant in the a.m. when it was very noticable. This was the result of the "dehydrated meat dinner" was the general consensus and everyone suffered the main effects which quickly cleared. At that time the senior N.C.O.'s and Officers dined later in the day as only gentlemen should and thus they were all unaware of the problems attending the "dehydrated meat dinner".

It was much later therefore that the senior N.C.O.'s felt the need to visit the facilites of our showcase latrine which had been very busy until they made their visit with the result that the main supporting beam gave way with a mighty crack and the Squadron Sergeant Major, along with the Squadron Quartermaster Sergent, the Squadron Sergeant Cook, and the Squadron Sergeant Mechanic/Fitter of A squadron, 145th regt R.A.C. of 21st Tank Brigade, British 1st Army, landed , as they say.... in the mire.

It was extremely difficult to keep a straight face for some time after that incident, meanwhile no more dehydrated meat was ever served again.

Cheers