Friendly fire

Discussion in 'General' started by RemeDesertRat, Mar 24, 2011.

  1. RemeDesertRat

    RemeDesertRat Very Senior Member

    From Wiki (IP/email address reference removed):


    Bit bored with it now, so we'll have a little tidy up shall we...



    I agree. :)
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Here's a friendly fire incident I wrote about earlier this year from the units 1940 war diary.

    1st Battalion, South Lancashire Regiment Friendly Fire Incident

    Also there was quite a few incidents in France from 39 to 40 where AA crews would open fire on anything in the air which resulted in friendly aircraft being shot down. A forum member has posted on here that his father/grandfather shot down a friendly aircraft in Belgium/France during 1940.
     
  3. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    Here's a friendly fire incident I wrote about earlier this year from the units 1940 war diary.

    1st Battalion, South Lancashire Regiment Friendly Fire Incident

    Also there was quite a few incidents in France from 39 to 40 where AA crews would open fire on anything in the air which resulted in friendly aircraft being shot down. A forum member has posted on here that his father/grandfather shot down a friendly aircraft in Belgium/France during 1940.

    Ya know that does rather bring us around to the 'Invasion Stripes' painted on Allied aircraft beginning June 1944. It seems even the planners of 'Overlord' were aware of the propensity, of all Allied troops, to shoot at anything flying.
     
  4. Just noted that the words 'fog of war' have not been used here. Orders are given, but by the time they are carried out, the situation has changed, sometimes dramatically. I never use the words 'friendly fire' because there is no such thing. I think it is self evident that reading books on the war, sometimes the C.O. didn't know where his Regiment was, particularly in 1940. It is one of those unfortunate traits of warfare - but like me, many of you find it hard to stomach.
     
  5. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    Just noted that the words 'fog of war' have not been used here. Orders are given, but by the time they are carried out, the situation has changed, sometimes dramatically. I never use the words 'friendly fire' because there is no such thing. I think it is self evident that reading books on the war, sometimes the C.O. didn't know where his Regiment was, particularly in 1940. It is one of those unfortunate traits of warfare - but like me, many of you find it hard to stomach.

    As much as you dislike 'friendly fire'; I find 'fog of war' to be exponentially more apalling. To me, 'fog of war' is a synonym for poor leadership.
     
  6. At Home Dad (Returning)

    At Home Dad (Returning) Well-Known Member

    cracking intro to the forum, Mario!

    [​IMG]
     
  7. As much as you dislike 'friendly fire'; I find 'fog of war' to be exponentially more apalling. To me, 'fog of war' is a synonym for poor leadership.

    Yes, Maybe that is the answer. Certainly there was some poor leadership, even more so in 1914-18. But it doesn't become the only reason for the words 'fog of war'. The General who knew where every unit was, what sort of tactical situation they were in, and what the state of that unit was at a given time, hasn't been born yet. Apalling Leadership has existed through history. The losses in the American civil war, and the battle of the Somme are just two examples.
     
  8. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    Yes, Maybe that is the answer. Certainly there was some poor leadership, even more so in 1914-18. But it doesn't become the only reason for the words 'fog of war'. The General who knew where every unit was, what sort of tactical situation they were in, and what the state of that unit was at a given time, hasn't been born yet. Apalling Leadership has existed through history. The losses in the American civil war, and the battle of the Somme are just two examples.

    Fog of War is an excuse for poor decisions. Generals should not concern themselves with the execution of operations, only the conduct of operations. Look at the descisions Mr. Hilter made; were those a result of the 'fog of war' or 'poor leadership'?
     
  9. Fog of War is an excuse for poor decisions. Generals should not concern themselves with the execution of operations, only the conduct of operations. Look at the descisions Mr. Hilter made; were those a result of the 'fog of war' or 'poor leadership'?

    So you are saying then that General Patton did not concern himself with the execution of operations? Hitler, (I assume that that is who you mean when you said Mr Hilter), was not a General. He was a politician and Bavarian Corporal. In any book you can read on any war, a good General makes decisions on the information he has to hand. If the situation has changed since he received that information, it may be perceived that his decision is a poor one. To say that 'fog of war' is only due to poor leadership is illogical and incorrect. However, I rest my case on the basis that any commander in the field can be misled by situations changing rapidly and no communication. Not all good Commanders make good decisions all of the time. Intelligence is key.
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Ya know that does rather bring us around to the 'Invasion Stripes' painted on Allied aircraft beginning June 1944. It seems even the planners of 'Overlord' were aware of the propensity, of all Allied troops, to shoot at anything flying.

    Someone posted on here a couple of years ago (It might have even been me) that the Allies on the ground were not allowed to fire at anything in the air on 6th June.
     
  11. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    So you are saying then that General Patton did not concern himself with the execution of operations?.

    Only to the extent it does not impede the conduct of operations. Generals provide the pictures, Colonels provide the colors, Majors provide the shading and NCO's apply the paint. As long as the paint is dry and you stay within the lines the General is happy.

    Hitler, (I assume that that is who you mean when you said Mr Hilter), was not a General. He was a politician and Bavarian Corporal..

    But, he appointed himself der Fuher- Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht.

    In any book you can read on any war, a good General makes decisions on the information he has to hand. If the situation has changed since he received that information, it may be perceived that his decision is a poor one. To say that 'fog of war' is only due to poor leadership is illogical and incorrect. .

    There is an appropriate Toshiro Mifune quote that I will not interject. When a commander concerens himself with the minutia of combat, instead of delegating and trusting in their subordinates, that is poor leadership.

    However, I rest my case on the basis that any commander in the field can be misled by situations changing rapidly and no communication. Not all good Commanders make good decisions all of the time. Intelligence is key.

    'Fog of War' is a leadership problem plain and simple. Generals do not request fire missions or close air support any more than they direct machinegun and rifle fire. Good leadership builds good decision making just as much as confidence builds trust. The decision to not 'Pull the trigger' is often more complex and thought provoking than 'pulling the trigger'.
     
  12. At Home Dad (Returning)

    At Home Dad (Returning) Well-Known Member

    Eh?

    [​IMG]

    Always quote Kikuchiyo when possible!


    There is an appropriate Toshiro Mifune quote that I will not interject. When a commander concerens himself with the minutia of combat, instead of delegating and trusting in their subordinates, that is poor leadership.
     
    Formerjughead likes this.
  13. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    Eh?

    Always quote Kikuchiyo when possible!

    I was thinking Sessue Hayakawa and typed Mifune a thousand pardons.
     
  14. I was thinking Sessue Hayakawa and typed Mifune a thousand pardons.

    Well thanks for the discussion, Formerjughead, I found it both interesting and stimulating. I was going to publish two examples, one typical fog of war, and one typical poor leadership, but stopped to think that we had wandered off the path of the original thread, so have made a tactical withdrawal, to set up my defences in another position.;)
     
  15. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    Well thanks for the discussion, Formerjughead, I found it both interesting and stimulating. I was going to publish two examples, one typical fog of war, and one typical poor leadership, but stopped to think that we had wandered off the path of the original thread, so have made a tactical withdrawal, to set up my defences in another position.;)

    It's not that far off path; there is a correlation between fratricide/ friendly fire and leadership. Leadership is training, training is confidence, confidence is decision making and decisions are leadership; it's a big circle.
    "Blue on Blue" kills are a touchy subject.
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    by George Forty page 124 talking about the lessons learned by the Germans during the invasion of Poland:

    Dive Bombing had aslo proved of great value in support of advancing armoured columns, and hence forward became an integral part of all blitzkreig attacks. On the debit side, however, was the unfortunate fact that Luftwaffe pilots had bombed their own forward formations on a number of occasions.
     
  17. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Reading 'Victory at Mortain' by Mark J Reardon.
    Pages 112-114 mention friendly fire by RAF Typhoons on US ground troops. Several men were killed and wounded by rocket & cannon fire.
    Even throwing yellow smoke grenades to ID friendly forces caused problems by attracting German mortar fire.
    The 120th Infantry Regiment's CP was bombed & strafed ten times on 7th August.
    The 120th appreciated the air support but did say ''if friendly air was as efficient against enemy as against us, enemy vehicle losses should be heavy.''
     
  18. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Only when it was done by accident and not by design.

    Anyways i was just wondering. Does allied submarines sinking a enemy ships full of allied POWs considered friendly fire? That's what i was just wondered.
     
    dbf likes this.

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