Anyone know if French Memorials carry all the names of their dead? Not just the 1939/40 casualties but Free French, Resistance and Vichy dead. If so anyone got any photos of examples? Reason I ask as was reading up on the Syrian Campaign & Battle of Palmyra & just wondered if the Vichy casualties were remembered too?
Many French war memorials don't list details of the casualties, but in the post-war political climate in France, I can't see ex-Vichy soldiers being commemorated.
Lots on here on the psychology of postwar France in relation to the Vichy thing, & De Gaulle's efforts to rebuild a sense of identity, the 'Historiography and memory' section I found particularly interesting. Simon Kitson_-Vichy I've google-searched the site and can find little or no reference to Vichy memorials, it does appear that the subject has, understandably, been swept under the rug somewhat, but there's lots of links on the page too, they might lead to more.
Don't forget that Vichy was regarded as an illegal organisation of government by De Gaulle.It was regarded as a front for the dictatorship of Petain and a facist administration. To the majority,Petain and his political followers and foot soldiers are now forgotten men in terms of being a heroes of France despite that the majority of the French population acquiesced while Petained ruled Vichy territory in proxy for Nazism.Active resistance has been put at about 5%.It has to be said that collaborators made vast fortunes, were they be in industry or were involved supplying goods and services to the occupying powers.These were all resented when the truth emerged of Petain's role as the last premier of the Third Republic and his and Vichy's role in the overthrow of the Third Republic. Vichy were not accorded an army under the terms of the armistice, merely the right to police its territory on behalf of the German occupying powers.This changed in November 1942 when Hitler made the decision to accupy Vichy "franchised" territory when German fortunes in North Africa were declining rapidly.Vichy militias carried on as normal with their butality of French civilians and worked hand in glove with the German iron fist that ruled France until the day of liberation. So the question is, what did the Vichy policing of its territory involve?.It involved the most bestial behaviour towards its fellow French citizens throught its various quasie-military formations. The most notoritious being the Milice who could match the Gestapo and SS in the field for their savagery.These representatives of terror when they met their end, in many cases were not afforded a decent burial as many of 200.000 French citizens were so denied who met their end from the intervention of the German occupying powers and Vichy administration. Vichy was also the agent of Germany in the raising of manpower through the deportment of French citizens by its legistlation, Service de Travail Obligatoire in order to meet Germany's ever growing demand for manpower for its war economy. This is on of the many reasons why Vichy. its followers and foot soldiers are not remembered. The only Vichy "casualty" remembered is that of Petain himself who after being incarcerated on the L'lle de'Yeu and dying there was interred there under strict security.Even so his body was "recovered" by followers in 1950, I think it was, then to be recovered and again reinterred there again.Without doubt, Petain lies at rest off the Vendee in a well marked grave because of his era as the Hero of Verdun and not connected with his infamous role as the Marshal of Vichy France. No doubt there is a police presence there daily as there is at Colombey-les-Deux Eglises. Memorials to the resistants, the deportees, the innocence French citizens and the Third Republic military dead abound and why should n't they? Vichy is an era which the French wished to put behind them after De Gaulle had rightfully settle the scores.
Anybody got a link to the text of a Chirac speech in 1995 where he's said to have stepped away from the position that Vichy was simply an aberration made by criminals and attempts to address that there was responsibility by the French State for the crimes of that regime? Sounds an interesting area... if very sticky politically. Seen it mentioned in a few places now, also on that Kitson site. 16 July 1995- during the commemorations of the Vél d'Hiv round-ups the new President, Jacques Chirac, recognises the role of the French state in anti-Semitic persecution: none of his predecessors had been prepared to do so. Simon Kitson Got some snippets but I'd be interested to read the whole thing. Cheers, Adam.
I would assume that Vichy casualties are as remembered as others on most town war memorials - the citizens of Metz (amongst others) who died fighting with the German armies of 1914 -18 are remembered alongside their French army counterparts of 1939-45 for example, so I can't see why they wouldn't be. The Vichy Croix de Guerre has now been recognised and can be worn alongside other medals with impunity (though there might have been a ribbon change - I'm not sure). As for burials, again not sure, but would assume that they were eligable for a place in French national cemeteries just as others were - the French cemetery at Frejus near Cannes contains the remains of French soldiers brought back from the military cemeteries in Vietnam (but it took until the 1970's for this to happen - Frejus wasn't completed until 1987!) . I'm pretty certain that some of the Vichy casualties of the Franco-Thai War (Oct 1940 - May 1941) are interred here also. Dave
Dave, How do you define Vichy casualties? the question put was for the French interior 1940-1944, ie the duration of the Vichy regime, not for North Africa,the French Indo-China conquest by Japan, Vichy France defence of Syria in 1941.Their efforts and motivation in Indo -China to resist the Japanese were not of the same magnitude as those they displayed against the Allies in North Africa and Syria. The French who fought at Metz in 1940 were soldiers of the French Third Republic.They are recognised in the alliance of Britain and French who opposed the German invasion of France. The Vichy regime came into existence on July 11 1940.It had no recognised army, it was n't allowed one by Germany.It never fought against Germany in the French interior but it did fight against the Allies in the French North Africa and in Syria.De Gaulle recognised this that neither of the "Deux Frances", his and Petain's did not have a recogised army.One of his first enactments as the leader of the Free French was to form the FFI to contribute to the liberation of France when the hour came. I have to say that I have never seen any memorials to Vichy or its various militias in France.The verdict of post war France is that Vichy never fought in France for anyone but Petain and his puppet government in league with, and to appease the German occupiers.
I must confess to being a little confused here, Harry. I wasn't aware that we were just talking about soldiers who died under the Vichy regime in France. The way I read the question, I thought it was worldwide. (also, where did I mention the defence of Metz 1940 and the Japanese annexation of Indo-China?) Anyway, the point of my post was to say that I'd expect Vichy casualties (ie. those who died from the metropolitan defence forces ,the Armee d'Afrique, and the armies in the other colonies, etc, post July 1940 and prior to November 27th 1942 whether or not the cause was for German/Italian or French interests) would be listed on local war memorials if the local commune allowed it - no hard and fast rules with these - in some cases. It would probably take a little research to work out who was who from a list of names anyway. They are certainly entitled to French wargrave status. Dave. Dave
Harry & Dave just to clear up why I was asking is that I was reading about the Syrian Campaign & wondered where the Vichy dead of that campaign were buried & commemorated. (see post #1) I'm also wondering about those killed in Madagascar & while we're at it, North Africa.
I found something here for you Owen. Bishop of good hope, The | Spectator, The | Find Articles at BNET It seems that the Vichy graves on Madagascar never bore names and they are now untended. Rich
Excellent work, Rich. Thanks. Over the broken wall the graveyard was a wilderness grazed by goats. I waded through the dry brown stalks, trying not to think about snakes, past desolate clumps of grey, leggy cabbage. Only the newest graves bore a handpainted sign and a few whitewashed rocks to frame the gap macheted out of scrub. Unmaintained, it all returns to bush. There are no identities on the rusting crosses in the French military section. The only names are those of the battles of 1942: Nosy-Komba, Hell-Ville, Ambomadiro, Betsiaka, Diego Suarez, Cap Diego, Anjiamena, Joffreville, Sakaramy, Vohema, Andapa.
grazed by goats I wonder... certainly tagged as Madagascar and in the area of Diego Suarez: visit the deceased on Flickr - Photo Sharing! gone on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Reading about Aleppo War Cemetery these two French cemeteries get a mention. two French cemeteries - Aleppo French Military Cemetery and Deir ez Zor French Military Cemetery. Anyone know anymore about these two? Would Vichy servicemen be buried there? Or are they from 14-18? EDIT Found this . Le Cimetière militaire français de Dmeir - Ambassade de France en Syrie Le Cimetière militaire français de Dmeir in Syria. Can anyone with a better grasp of French find out if any Vichy casualties are buried there? It says .. et les combats de la seconde guerre mondiale. so that must include them?
I must confess to being a little confused here, Harry. I wasn't aware that we were just talking about soldiers who died under the Vichy regime in France. The way I read the question, I thought it was worldwide. (also, where did I mention the defence of Metz 1940 and the Japanese annexation of Indo-China?) Anyway, the point of my post was to say that I'd expect Vichy casualties (ie. those who died from the metropolitan defence forces ,the Armee d'Afrique, and the armies in the other colonies, etc, post July 1940 and prior to November 27th 1942 whether or not the cause was for German/Italian or French interests) would be listed on local war memorials if the local commune allowed it - no hard and fast rules with these - in some cases. It would probably take a little research to work out who was who from a list of names anyway. They are certainly entitled to French wargrave status. Dave. Dave Apparently the reason why French casualties from the exterior have been interred in France is that the legislation passed on 16 October 1946 allowed French next of kin to repatriate remains back to the French interior, ie French mainland.These repatriations covered remains from: Indo China. Any conflict with neighbouring countries such as Thai would be included.Presumabily covers your reference to the France -Thai conflict Oct 1940 to May 1941. Korea. Madagascar All in all, 125.000 remains were brought back to France covering both World Wars I would think that there would not be no reference as regards memorials to those who fell whilst under the Vichy administration and whose remains were repatriated.The cause is deep seated. Regarding those who fell under the Vichy administration, there is no trace as far as I can see on the official website "Memoire des Hommmes" It would be very hard for French Departments to impose or otherwise, local memorials to those who served Vichy.They would not sit well against Third Republic casualties,resistants, deportees, STO and civil victims listed on these memorials which adorn most villages in France. Again I have yet to find any death commemorated on memorials with a reference to Vichy service in my travels throughout France.Vichy service was something that people tended to keep to themselves, postwar, particular involvement in the French interior.Postwar, the French would never have agreed to Vichy dead, paricularly those who served in the quasie militias, to have wargrave status.The postion may have changed now but I have not seen any evidence of it and as I see it the focus is still on those who "Mort Pour La France" and not those who died in the service of Vichy. Interestingly, Mitterand served within the Vichy administration on his release from being a POW in Germany as an Adminstrator for the welfare of POWs.However it wasn't long before he was whizzed away by the RAF to London to join De Gaulle and the Free French. An interesting subject.
