Anyone ever contacted them in France or gone into their offices etc? Are they generally helpful? Do you have to make an appointment or can you just turn up? Any times/days to avoid? Would they be the best person to speak to regarding CWGC burial details that are kept locally in France? An idiots guide from anyone who's done this would be most helpful Cheers Andy
Working on TV projects I have cause to deal with them frequently. Most do not have email and will only initially deal by Fax or over the phone. They will only engage in French, even if they speak English. Most are not open every day unless it is a large commune; some only open once a week or a couple of times a month, except by appointment. What sort of records are you after? They hold very little on non-French subjects buried in communal cemeteries. I can give you an example; there was an IWGC gardener who died in the 30s buried in the village where I lived for ten years. There was not a single record of his burial or grave in the Mairie.
Its a CWGC unknown grave in the Pas de Calais area. I'll probably describe this wrong but I've seen some sort of French cemetery record keeping regarding the chaps the book was about in the actual book. If I remember correctly there was a brief description of the body and any possessions that they had etc. I've already asked CWGC and they were not interested, contacted In From The Cold and they didn't reply so I think the only avenue to try now is in France.
Drew, I think Paul is largely correct. Bear in mind that local Mayors in France, despite having a wider civil responsibility and powers than UK Mayors are usually also local businessmen and part time Mayors. Most Communes also have a Clerk but many are part-time. In my experience if you approach them in the right way the Clerk will admit to speaking some English (generally well-educated) but perhaps reluctantly. Having said that I think it unlikely you will find records of English burials held at a Mairie. If you can get the Clerk (or better - the Mayor) interested in the subject, and in the Pas de Calais you might have a chance, they might investigate on your behalf. My French is a bit better than schoolboy but not sure if it would be good enough for what you need. Have you thought about asking Sebfrench or other French-speaking members for assistance?
Think I need to speak to Rich and Jan - I'm hoping to get over the water and see them this year. Why is nothing ever simple !
Drew, As you well know mate time spent on research/getting local contacts involved can produce great results that could prevent an otherwise frustrating overseas visit. This forum is very good at this sort of thing with members in so many countries. I have had fantastic co-operation from forum members which has helped me no end, and with your TNA search offers I am sure you will have many members willing to help. So don't be shy about asking any French -speaking members for a bit of help. Do you have any recollection of the book you referred to? Dumb question I guess - if you knew the book you would ask for a copy or look-up. Or the blokes names and circumstances?
I've got the book mate and contacted the author etc. My thought process is I need to get out on the ground and check the records but my French stops at Biere
Hi Andy, This sounds familiar Tom Rodgers autopsy reports and burial records complete with the Mayors office seal? Domonique Faivre the historian who wrote the book and his ARHAM group I think now possess the records ? If I`m wrong its a remarkable coincidance with such similarities. The French records do not tally with the Ministry of Defence ones,the original burial list for the cemetery, if its St Venant,has two men on it not commemorated in the cemetery one RA the other Manchester regt the CWGC dont want to know mate.Speak with Tony Corkhill if its St Venant.There may be something of interest on the RWF Forum, unfortunately I have not been able to follow the most recent posts as you can only view now if you are a member so best speak with Tony Corkhill Best Kyle
Hi Kyle - No this is another chap murdered near Wormhoudt. I'm aware of the thread on RWF and like you not looked in for ages. Cheers Andy
Drew - My French is not up to detailed conversation; although I get by fine, and understand much more than I speak, on a research trip I have usually asked a mate to go who has better language skillsand written letters/e-mails beforehand. SebFrench did indeed volunteer his services after my last research trip in 2011. My experience of Mairies is largely in line with what others are saying; politicians often have other jobs and responsibilities and if they do speak English at all, will generally not unles you try a bit of French - it's a politeness more than anything. Outside Paris I've found most people to be pretty good, but if you need to ask specific detailed questions, you're best off with a French speaker. I found Francois Fermanel, a local historian who lives in St.Pierre du Vauvoir, through a local history forum on which he had placed a couple of pieces of information I really wanted to see. One was a letter from the local town clerk to the Regional government apologising for allowing people to evacuate the town, but he couldn't prevent it and the Germans were shelling the place - I did see the typewritten letter in the Mairie, but the other piece, which was a pencilled minutes from a council meeting of 1940, but I could only look at it, not copy or photograph..hmmm? But - .swings and roundabouts. Throughout everybody was very polite but I got the feeling local politics between mayor and historian had intruded and just a bit of reputation/pride stuff got in the way. The mayor did show me an abandoned trench, probably dug by the 2/6 DoW but I think he was keen to take credit, get in photographs, mention in books etc. I did use my university e-mail but to be honest, with ordinary French people, being yourself is enough. (I don't cut it as an academic at all) I ended up wandering the battlefield all day with M.Fermanel, had a whale of a time, very informative and finished having a drink in his house and was three sheets to the wind when we got back to Rouen (I'm the barmaid's apron when it comes to drinking) To be honest I was very encouraged by Kim James' experience in 'A Greater Share of Honour' (would love to have chat with you about that book) in which he found a lot of detailed information about burials. I disagree with other people about exactly what is held in local records - you can't generalise. Often towns and villages were deserted in May/June then repopulated later and the occupying German troops were anxious to make the place work, so allowed the usual functions to carry on. In my case, this was the minutes of a council meeting in August 1940 discussing the arrangements for reinterring the casualties of the fighting in June. The local road mender, had been killed in the fighting and they were asking another to do the job. It was in pencil because the Germans had looted the typewriters and a lot else besides. I'd say look for local historians, e-mail, ask favours, get someone French from on here. When I first went to the area I was just wandering without purpose or much real information, although I got a lot of creative input. The subsequent visits have been better organised, researched and accompanied by French speakers - and they've yielded much more. Happy to chat if you want - busy for the next couple months tied to exams and marking unfortunately.
I eventually realised you were asking about making enquiries at a French town hall (La Mairie) as opposed to French ladies with the first name of Marie! Very often the French Town Hall, and the Mayor (or deputy) are able to assist with a wartime research enquiry about their community. I have been helped a number of times in the past, including trying to find the burial location of French civilians who were killed in the war (similar in some respects to what I assume your own request). I have been referred to the appropriate department for the correct record. On the whole, after explaining the reason for such an enquiry I have been given every assistance where I have asked. Obviously it would depend upon the size of the town or village you intend to visit as to how it might work out. It would probably work better for someone who can converse fluently in French. For someone who is not confident enough speaking French it might be worthwhile taking a friend who is. It would be better if you wrote in advance to make an appointment, especially if it is a smaller community you have in mind. In some smaller towns or villages the town hall office is only open part time. Also, at all cost avoid lunchtimes! The office will probably be closed. Bonne chance!
Thanks all, someone who speaks fluent French has offered to write a letter for me to the Marie and if that looks promising travel to France with me to check the records in person. Andy
