Frederick Bailey Possible Non Commemorated Fisherman

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by chrisharley9, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. chrisharley9

    chrisharley9 Senior Member

    Afternoon All

    Frederick is at present commemorated on the CWGC Civilian Roll of Honour. His entry there shows that he died in a fishing boat at sea 20th March 1941.

    Due to additional information now available I suspect that he may be entitled to full war grave status with CWGC.

    His death cert adds little to above entry confirming death was due to war operations, but gives us a vessel number F679. HIs burial register at Hawkinge Cemetery shows that death occurred at sea off Sandgate, Kent.

    Is there any official register that can be used to prove that he was a member of the Fishing Fleet that I can use to get him war grave status?

    Cheers

    Chris
     
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  2. Billy McGee

    Billy McGee Senior Member

    I have copies of the 1939-45 Deaths at Sea Register covering the names of the men from the Merchant Navy & Fishing Fleet who died during WWII, both by war cause and accident, illness etc. To search the register I would need to know the name of the fishing vessel F679, as this is how the files are indexed.
     
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  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    For Info

    England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2016
    Name: Frederick Bailey
    Age: 61
    Birth Date: abt 1880
    Death Date: 21 Mar 1941
    Death Place: In Boat off Sandgate, Kent
    Burial Date: 25 Mar 1941
    Burial Place: Hawkinge, Kent, England
    Grave Number: 5
    Interment Number: 45
     

    Attached Files:

  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Chris hope you dont mind

    I contacted Folkestone museum and said they will check to see if they can find the name of the vessel within the archives plus contact the Fishing and heritage museum to see if they can add further info.
    They said they will call me back next week.

    regards
    Clive
     
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  5. chrisharley9

    chrisharley9 Senior Member

    Thanks to everyone who has replied to this thread.

    Clive I have no problems with your course of action as it better than anything that I could think of.

    Chris
     
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  6. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Just a thought, but fishing vessels now have two letters, usually the first and last of the place of registry, so one from FolkestonE would be registered as FE 679, rather than just F679???? Doesn't give the Name of the vessel, but might help searchers.....

    Found this for fishing vessels lost by enemy action..
    Merchant Navy Losses WWII
    March 1941
    11th "Aberdeen" Steam Trawler 163 tons Aircraft Bombed & Gunfire
    14th "Peaceful Star" Steam Drifter 94 tons Aircraft Bombed
    20th "Joan Margaret" Fishing Vessel 25 tons Mine -
    20th "Blanco" Steam Trawler 174 tons Aircraft Torpedo

    if any of those match to Folkestone, Hythe or Sandgate, or F(E)679 then that might be his ship.
    Don't know if any other crew members also killed.
    Joan Maragret at just 25 tons might be the most likely.... hope it's not a red herring......
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  8. chrisharley9

    chrisharley9 Senior Member

    Joan Margeret was a Grimsby vessel according to CWGC. Worth a try though.
     
  9. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    I don't think I would discount the fact that 'F' = Faversham. The vessel's number indicates where it is registered and not necessarily it's operating area. The Shipping Registers for Faversham and Folkstone will be available somewhere but I don't know where.

    Tim
     
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  10. Billy McGee

    Billy McGee Senior Member

    The Joan Margaret was sunk in the vicinity of Cleeness, Lightfloat off the Humber. She is recorded in the Deaths at Sea Register for May 1941 as being lost on the 20th March 1941 with the loss of five crew, one survivor. Was Frederick Bailey possibly the survivor?? and died, without his loss being passed onto the correct authorities.

    Tower Hill Memorial Panel 126

    HAXBY, Skipper, RICHARD, Fishing Vessel Joan Margaret (Grimsby). Fishing Fleet. 20th March 1941. Age 36.

    PEARSON, Engineer, THOMAS EDMOND, Fishing Vessel Joan Margaret (Grimsby). Fishing Fleet. 20th March 1941. Age 32. Son of George and Millah Pearson; husband of Ethel Pearson, of Filey, Yorkshire.

    POWLEY, Mate, JOHN WILLIAM, Fishing Vessel Joan Margaret (Grimsby). Fishing Fleet. 20th March 1941. Age 38. Son of John and Frances Powley.

    WILLIS, Mate, GEORGE, Fishing Vessel Joan Margaret (Grimsby). Fishing Fleet. 20th March 1941. Age 42. Son of George and Ann Willis; husband of Fanny Willis, of Filey, Yorkshire.

    Buried Ashore Filey (St. Oswald) Churchyard

    PEARSON, Skipper, GEORGE ROBERT, Fishing Vessel Joan Margaret (Grimsby). Fishing Fleet. 20th March 1941. Age 36. Husband of Fanny E. Pearson of Filey.

    There is nothing recorded in the Deaths at Sea Register for the Blanco, and she is neither recorded in Lloyd's War Losses Vol. I & II for fishing vessels sunk or damaged
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  11. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Billy, I've now found
    FV BIANCA (UK 174 grt) was sunk in the Irish Sea when she picked up a German aerial torpedo or bomb in her nets. Five crew were lost.
    Transcription error so not "Blanco" same date, same tonnage, same cause of loss (thought it rather strange that an aircraft would torpedo such a small vessel - and even more - hit it!). Ignore as in the Irish Sea, not off Folkestone....
    Apart from F for Faversham, Port Registry letters in UK were FE for Folkestone; FR for Fraserburgh (possible with Scottish connection?) FD for Fleetwood; FH for Falmouth and FY for Fowey....
     
  12. chrisharley9

    chrisharley9 Senior Member

    Hello Billy

    I would say no as the burial register does state in boat off Sandgate

    Chris
     
  13. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    hello Chris
    Folkestone museum were helpful they contacted the chap who supplied this info below.

    Could it be FE79 Golden Sunset

    upload_2018-12-5_15-31-40.png

    upload_2018-12-5_15-35-31.png


    When I was about 14 years old during school holidays I went out fishing on FE79 with John Wells who's uncle Fred Brice was skipper owner on the boat. I did know about one of the crew being killed by enemy action, but didn't know his name or the date.


    Frederick Bailey was down below in the cabin have a cup of tea when a German cannon shell came through the side of the boat and killed him. The hole in the boat which was well above the water line had a lead patch on it as long as I can remember.


    The boat's name was "Golden Sunset" FE79, she was built in Newlyn, Cornwall in 1920. She was 37 feet overall with a beam of 12.2 feet, draft 6 Feet and 15.36 tons. She came to Folkestone 25 October 1933 at which time the skipper owner was Richard Brice (Fred's father). The vessel was sold in 1976.


    Please find attached two photos of her. On the FE20 photo FE79 is the middle vessel.






    Kind regards,

    Alan

    Also Skipper mentioned here
    Folkestone From Old Photographs
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  14. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Looks like it is definitely due to enemy action, as long as the connection can be made
    to whoever then added the name of William Bailey.
    Now we have the name, other snippets turn up
    June (1)
    HYTHE, KENT. At 1.50 in the afternoon of the 15th of April, 1944, an American Thunderbolt aeroplane, which had been damaged by enemy action, crashed in the sea three miles south of Hythe. The weather was fine and the sea calm. The pilot had baled out before the crash and he was picked up by four men in the fishing boat Golden Sunset, F.E.79, who were fishing near.
    They handed him over to an air-sea rescue boat from Dover. Another boat, F.E.116, went out at the request of the coastguard, but returned on learning that the airman had been saved. One of the crew of the Golden Sunset lost his teeth, but the American authorities undertook to replace them.- Rewards, a letter of appreciation to Mr. W. Hall and Mr. H. Griggs, the skippers of the two boats.
    (that might be of interest to the Museum, if they don't already have the info)

    EDIT
    Incidentally, the link to old photos also links to other members of the Harris family, one of which has
    Henry James Harris 25/08/1879 – 22/07/1946 – first son of James and Katherine
    Harry as he was known was said to have been one of the brave band of fishermen who risked enemy attacks and mines during the war. He had several dangerous experiences and narrowly escaped death when three enemy planes swooped over his boat machine gunning the deck on which he was standing. He dived down the companion way head first and fell on too one of the crew though momentarily stunned he was unhurt. On another occasion he lost a large amount of valuable equipment when his trawl caught a magnetic mine and the nets had to be cut away to save the ship being blown up by the mine.

    Magnetic mines were not around in WW1, so the strafing could also relate to WW2, possibly the incident in which Frederick Bailey was killed? It may not have been Golden Sunset, though....
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  15. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Kevin

    The chap is an old resident of Folkestone
    He said he didn't know the name and in his story he then added it for clarity.
    I have spoken at length to some very helpful people at the museum.
    Once the museum has permission from Alan for me to email him I shall pass his details to Chris.


    regards
    Clive
     
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  16. chrisharley9

    chrisharley9 Senior Member

    Thanks Clive for your efforts.

    Billy now we have a ship's name can you please check the registers?
     
  17. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    1939 REGISTER TRANSCRIPTION
    75 Marshall Street, Folkestone M.B., Kent
    NAME - DOB - OCCUPATION
    Charles Waddel - 11 Jul 1878 - Ice Cream Maker
    Fred Bailey - 26 Dec 1878 - Fisherman
     
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  18. Billy McGee

    Billy McGee Senior Member

    I have checked the full register from March to December 1941 for the Golden Sunset and there is no entry at all. Looks like Frederick Bailey's details were never passed on to the relevant authorities regarding the circumstances of his death for inclusion as official war dead and only included in the civilian register. Do not think the CWGC will just accept a copy of his death certificate, stating due to war operations as I have experienced previously with cases I have worked on, but saying that they seem to be using a bit more common sense and are more lenient as I have had some cases reviewed again and reversed in favour.
     
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  19. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    - recorded as "misadenture"?
    The Americans seemed rather profligate with the loss of their aircraft, there's a similar report
    June (1)
    A set of false teeth seems a niggardly compensation!
     
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  20. chrisharley9

    chrisharley9 Senior Member

    Thanks Billy. I have another tack to try. Will get back to you later.

    Just want to say to everyone who has contributed to this thread my heartfelt thanks.
     

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