Recently I bought a single volume containing all of Shakespeare's complete works. When I cracked it open, I was very suprised to find some very old bills inside, as well as a very very interesting piece of paper. It is a slip about 4 inches by 6 inches long, with PRISONERS OF WAR CAMPS typed across the top. In the middle, it says "threepence", and has 3d written in the corner, which I assume to indicate 3 marks. Along the bottom it says AVAILABLE IN CAMP OF ISSUE ONLY. When I turned it over, I found eight circles on it, four in a row, two rows. The first one is stamped P.O.W. CAMP No. 89 GREAT BRITAIN. Along two of the other circles, there is an oval stamp that says ORDERLY ROOM along the top, as well as the date, 6 OCT 1943 in the middle, with No. 89 P.O.W. CAMP along the bottom. So were these issued for POWs to spend in the camps? I am very interested to learn about this.
Pow Camps 89 Pow Camp Easton Grey Camp Malmesbury Wiltshire England Welcome to the boards, very interesting find!
It sounds more like a UK issued note because of the reference to its value of 'threepence' and the '3d'. For those a little too young to remember the 'old' money in the UK before we were decimalized, the abbreviation 'd' was used to denote pence. Maybe so as not to confuse it with a 'P' for pounds, but that's only my thought on it the reason. Further to that, any notes issued in a Germany camp would have had the value in Reich Marks and Pfennigs or RM and Pf, not in pounds and pence.
Yeah, clearly the British version of "Lagergeld," issued to POWs to buy stuff at the canteen. POWs must be paid at the same rate as garrison troops of the guarding power, according to the nice folks at Geneva.
Not exactly true as you should only be paid if you are working and it doesn't have to be the same as the guards accordint to Article 62 of the convention. Article 62 Prisoners of war shall be paid a fair working rate of pay by the detaining authorities direct. The rate shall be fixed by the said authorities, but shall at no time be less than one-fourth of one Swiss franc for a full working day. The Detaining Power shall inform prisoners of war, as well as the Power on which they depend, through the intermediary of the Protecting Power, of the rate of daily working pay that it has fixed. Working pay shall likewise be paid by the detaining authorities to prisoners of war permanently detailed to duties or to a skilled or semi-skilled occupation in connection with the administration, installation or maintenance of camps, and to the prisoners who are required to carry out spiritual or medical duties on behalf of their comrades. The working pay of the prisoners' representative, of his advisers, if any, and of his assistants, shall be paid out of the fund maintained by canteen profits. The scale of this working pay shall be fixed by the prisoners' representative and approved by the camp commander. If there is no such fund, the detaining authorities shall pay these prisoners a fair working rate of pay. I'm also sure that the 'one fourth of one Swiss Franc' has been increased since then
Thanks for the fast and informative replies! I shall look up that camp. For those that would be interested, I also found a 1943 ten cent bill from Ceylon, a 1915 one-peso bill from Chihuahua Mexico, and a 1940 one-rupee bill. The book I found it all in was $40, so I think I got my money's worth!
Actually, Plant-Pilot, you are quoting from the 1949 Geneva conventions, which would not have been applicable during WWII. The relevant document is the Geneva Convention of 1929, which does provide for payments in various articles. Under Article 23, "officers and persons of equivalent status...shall receive from the detaining Power the same pay as officers of corresponding rank in the armies of that Power, on the condition, howver, that this pay does not exceed that to which they are entitled in the armies of the country which they have served." Article 28 authorises payment of wages for POWs "working for the account of private persons." Article 34 states "POWs shall not receive wages for work connected with the administration, management, and maintenance of the camps. Prisoners utilised for other work shall be entitled to wages to be fixed by agreements between the belligerants.... while awaiting the conclusion of the said agreements, payment for labor of prisoners shall be settled according to the rules given below: "(a) work done for the stae shall be paid for in accordance with the rates in force for soldiers of the national army doing the same work, or if none exists, according to arate in harmony with the work performed. (B) when the work is done for the account of other public administrations or for private persons, conditions shall be regulated by agreement with the military authority." This discussion brings up a very relevant point-- I constantly see references to the Geneva Conventions in various fora. Frequently, references are made to agreements which were not in effect at the time referenced. I think we have to remember that it was the 1929 agreement, not the 1949 ones, which was in effect during World War 2. Doc
Originally posted by plant-pilot@Aug 26 2005, 11:51 AM It sounds more like a UK issued note because of the reference to its value of 'threepence' and the '3d'. For those a little too young to remember the 'old' money in the UK before we were decimalized, the abbreviation 'd' was used to denote pence. Maybe so as not to confuse it with a 'P' for pounds, but that's only my thought on it the reason. [post=38159]Quoted post[/post] It all goes back to Latin, which I never learned, so I am not too sure of the terms, however: As money systems developed, it was quite normal to have the main unit broken down into twently sub units, in turn broken down into twelve smaller units. The British pound was an equivalent to the French livre, the main unit of currency up to the revolution, and the Italian lira. In French, livre means pound and you can still ask for "un livre" when you want half a kilo of something, the rough weight equivalent. In Italy, the British pound sign, £, was sometimes used for the lira, even though the values in the 20th century had nothing left in common. British old money is still sometimes referred to as LSD, meaning pounds, shillings and pence. The "D" refers to the Latin term for pence. I cannot remember what this term is, but I always think in terms of French old money, livres, sous and derniers and there you have it. These terms are directly derived from Latin. "P" is not and never has been a symbol for British pounds. The note in question seems to be camp money, which would have no value outside the camp.
It all goes back to Latin, which I never learned, so I am not too sure of the terms, however: D was dinari
Originally posted by morse1001@Sep 5 2005, 08:29 PM It all goes back to Latin, which I never learned, so I am not too sure of the terms, however: D was dinari [post=38608]Quoted post[/post] Wasn't it Denarii? Ancient Roman coinage? This is the plural form. Denarius is the singular. From Deni, it literally meant/means ten at a time. Early decimilisation. L is for Libra which meant a "pound" weight in Latin..hence the abbrev. lb S is an abbreviation of shilling D stands for Denarius or plural Denarii We used L.s.d. in Australia until 13/2/1966.
Wasn't it Denarii? Ancient Roman coinage? This is the plural form. Denarius is the singular. Okay, my latin spelling is not what it should be!
